In this episode, Shirley Waldron of Delva Patman Redler talks about her work with Crossrail and how the Crossrail Act affected the application of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996.
Shirley also gives her views on the effectiveness of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996, its failings and what kind of amendments could be put forward and her opinion on whether all leaseholders are entitled to service of notice for works under section 6 of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996.
Philippe: Hi and welcome to another edition of Party Wall PRO the Podcast. I’ve got Shirley Waldron with me today from Delva Patman Redler. Shirley has a bit of a different background which is quite interesting. She’s an architect from training and got sucked into the party wall world. Shirley, welcome. Thanks for joining us. So let’s get into how you ended up there from being a chartered architect and then party wall.
Shirley: Yes. OK. Well, I had wanted to do architecture from a very young age. I think in that way, I was quite lucky because most of my friends didn’t know what they wanted to do. A lot of my fellow students didn’t know what they wanted to do and some people just kind of drifted into whichever career sort of took them in whichever direction. But I was very lucky I think in that I knew I wanted to do architecture from about age 11 or so like that. So every decision I made really took me in that direction which meant that I focused on the relevant A levels, and then got into architecture at university. I was at Brighton College for my A levels and in Brighton at the local polytechnic, they had the School of Architecture, which is now of course Brighton University. I was very lucky to have some very good lecturers and tutors there and it was great to do what I wanted to do. I stayed in Brighton to do my year out. I don’t know if everyone is aware but architecture is a seven-year course. You have a three-year degree course. You do a year in private practice or even in government practice. You go back to university to do a diploma and then you do a final year in practice and then you can do your part three. I did all my training in Brighton and I did my year out as well in Brighton and it was only when I finally got my diploma that I wanted to do something different and I went to live in Gilford and I worked for an architecture practice in Gilford. In fact I worked for all three at the time, Scott Brownrigg, Lewis and Hickey and Norman and Dawbarn and that was very interesting. I worked on some MOD projects, I worked on – for Scott Brownrigg - Terminal 2 Manchester Airport and just at that time, CAD was coming through and I was on one of the very first training programs in Cambridge. The training course was a week long actually, and it was done by McDonnell Douglas, the aircraft manufacturers, the engineers and they were on this course which was GDS and it was actually a very impressive tool, which then subsequently became Micro GDS and there were various other offshoots to that, Auto CAD, et cetera, and it kind of took on a life of its own. But yes, I was one of the very first people to train as a CAD technician as a qualified architect. I did that for years actually. I had a stint in Singapore where I worked for a firm of architects and that was by choice. I went to live in Singapore for three years and I did architecture there and I then stopped doing architecture because I was having too much fun and I decided I was going to teach English and I did that. I taught English to mostly Japanese students. But doing that meant I could dictate my own terms really and my own calendar. It kind of freed me up. I ran my own business there basically, teaching English to mostly Japanese students, which was quite an eye-opener. Actually it was a great place to live. Everything worked. It was very clean and everything functioned and yet it was all in the middle of the most amazing travel opportunities to Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, and I visited all those places and it was great fun.
Philippe: Nice. You did that for how long, sorry?
Shirley: Yeah. So I was there for three years. I wish I had stayed a little longer. It was completely different from England, as you can probably imagine, and one thing that was kind of a bit depressing was that there were no seasons. So it was never cold and dry or warm and wet. It was always very hot and very wet or very, very hot and very, very wet and actually it always got light at 7:30 in the morning and dark at 7:30 in the evening. There were no seasons like we have here, which is something fun. Anyway, the other thing about Singapore is that it is very transient. Everyone was always just passing through and you would make friends and then they would leave and eventually it was time for me to leave. I have actually still got some friends in Singapore who I would love to go and visit.
Philippe: Yeah, nice. And then decided to come back...
Shirley: Yeah, I came back to work for architects. I went to work for Scott Brownrigg and Turner and then there was a major layoff and I then came into London and I worked for EPR Architects, Elsom Pack & Roberts as they were, but they just shortened their name to EPR and in fact I think there were none of the original partners around at that time. I worked on some interesting projects there. And then I met my partner there and I left very shortly before my child was born, Emma. She’s now 19 years old. So really that was when my life changed from architecture when I came back after having Emma. I started my own business as an architect. I did a few project management jobs. I worked as a building control officer – I worked for Wandsworth Borough Council because it was something that I really fancied doing and that was a very interesting part of my career, very steep learning curve actually because there’s a huge difference between – even though I’ve had a fair amount of site experience, to actually be a person who makes a decision on things like foundations and whether to sign off a job. You have to make critical inspections for the projects and my patch was Tooting which was a slightly rough area of London where people were trying to do all sorts of things that they shouldn’t have been doing. You kind of flew by the seat of your pants a bit and that was very interesting. But then I met a gentleman who was working for GIA at the time, a chap called Michael Deason and he very kindly made me an offer that I couldn’t refuse and that was me working in party walls and it has been that way ever since. I carried on with my own practice for a while. But I was soon working fulltime at GIA and there we go.
Philippe: So it’s GIA the culprit then.
Shirley: Yes, GIA is entirely responsible.
Philippe: That must have been a funny switch though. You obviously you had an interest in party wall and were doing party wall before...
Shirley: I’ve done a very, very small amount. Yeah, hardly anything but it just shows that you could pick it up as part of a team. I was not on my own to start with. I mean that would probably have been too risky. But you work as a team and eventually you become the named surveyor and you build confidence, I suppose, in your own abilities which means that you kind of are able to take that on.
Philippe: Yeah. And then how did you manage to get from there to now being famous for working for Crossrail?
Shirley: OK. Infamous perhaps. I don’t know if famous – all right. I will have that. Yeah. So it was in 2009 I recall. We were just moving down to Brighton, moving back out of London. We decided that we wanted to move to Brighton for personal reasons. In fact my daughter was at a good place at Brighton College and it was too good an opportunity to turn down. So we made a decision to move back out to Brighton, which we felt was going to be an opportunity to grow the business because I still had the architect practice going and my partner Rodrigo, he was working for the practice as an architect, you see. So it suited us to perhaps move out to Brighton and just try and grow the practice down there. I would commute into work on my party wall projects, which didn’t quite work out exactly like that. But we still worked in London, in fact most of our business was still in London because that’s where the money was and that’s where our clients were. So I commuted in. We bought a house in Brighton that we did a lot of work to. So that’s another area where our joint skills as knowledgeable in construction became very useful. We bought up a house that needed a lot of work done to it and we did that work to it and that’s where we live now. So to then I suppose become involved in Crossrail, I had a friend who worked for Crossrail. In fact he was one of the stakeholders in Crossrail and he rang me one day and said, “Shirley, Crossrail doesn’t really know what their obligations are with regard to party wall matters.”
Philippe: That’s a nice phone call to get.
Shirley: Yeah, no. I find it quite astounding actually that there was so little internal knowledge about party wall matters in Crossrail and that they needed somebody to tell them what they had to do. They were under the impression because the Crossrail Act – in fact dissapplies a lot of legislation including planning and various others. I’m not exactly sure. So I would rather not say exactly what legislation it disapplies. But it did disapply section 6 of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 because of the tunnelling. When you’ve got 17 kilometres of tunnelling, you have to do something which eliminates the need to serve notice on every free holder, lease holder within six metres of the tunnel and replace it with something different and that’s what they did. The Crossrail Act replaced it with a mechanism whereby people could have schedules of condition, done of their properties and then report if there was any damage and have the damage made good. There were certain properties that were protected by inspections and reports, so that Crossrail could fully understand the risks to those particular properties. But the Crossrail Act did not disapply work for section 2 or section 1 of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 and in fact it didn’t disapply section 3, which is the requirement to serve notice under section 2. So for demolition so whereby Crossrail would compulsorily purchase properties, they would then have to go about demolishing them using the mechanisms, which the Party Wall Act provided and there was one particular property which was at Bond Street, Eastern Ticket Hall and it was 20 Hanover Square, which had a particular undertaking and that was a signed agreement between the owners of 20 Hanover Square and (they called it) the “undertaker”. They didn’t even know who the undertaker would be, in fact, it was Crossrail and Crossrail was made up of the secretary of state for transport and Transport for London, a combined government body. But at that time when they signed the undertaking, they didn’t know who – when they signed the deed of agreement, they didn’t know who was – who Crossrail were. They did not even exist as an entity. So Crossrail didn’t really know what their obligations were with regard to the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996, they were under misapprehension that people would consent to notices because why wouldn’t they. And they wanted to start works. So it was all a bit of a rush. They needed advice and they needed to know where they stood. So I told them that they needed to appoint a party wall surveyor and they had a list of TFL approved surveyors. There was a chap called Matt Walker from AKS Ward who was appointed by TFL as party wall surveyor for that one particular site. They needed to do a huge amount of work because 20 Hanover Square was a grade two listed property and they knew they wanted to demolish the compulsory purchased buildings 18 and 19 Hanover Square that they had acquired. That’s how I got on board really. I would happily have stayed working for Crossrail and advised them on their obligations under the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996, but this was a slightly different opportunity which came my way which was to work for Matt Walker at AKS Ward and together we served all the notices for east and west and also for Fisher Street where there was an air shaft and an access shaft that they needed to construct. So it was those projects that I got involved in and just to kind of wind back a bit, the undertaking between Crossrail and GPE was that, even though the Party Wall Act had been disapplied, there were other mechanisms that Crossrail were relying on to protect adjoining owners. The undertaking specifically requested the reapplication of the Party Wall Act to protect 20 Hanover Square. The owners of 20 Hanover Square who were Great Portland Estate and still are, appreciated that there was really only one mechanism by which they were going to be truly protected and that was the Party Wall Act. So they did. That’s really how I got into Crossrail and it was extraordinary. The things that I learned, the things that I became involved in were amazing and very informative and I have written a couple of Crossrail papers for Whispers which is the P&T publication.
Philippe: How does that work? So the Crossrail Act disapplied section six but not section three.
Philippe: And this is how they managed to actually get protection under the Party Wall Act. It’s – was that the deficiency of the Crossrail Act or was that on purpose?
Shirley: On purpose. They had to disapply section 6 because of tunnelling. This was a specific deed which 20 Hanover Square owners had with Crossrail because when you see the site, when you see the proximity of 20 Hanover Square to the excavations, the tunnelling, the cross passages, the five-level basement, all the piling and the excavation and they needed to keep that building working, I mean it was occupied by leaseholders and tenants. They needed that to continue. They had a glass dome over the staircase which was identified to be an at risk structure and at one point, there was actually a frame, a steel frame inside the main entrance of this listed building to support the dome and the party wall because the party wall was still being used by 20 Hanover Square and it needed to be braced, it needed to be strengthened because it wasn’t connected to the party wall. What happened was they actually inserted these Cintec anchors into the wall, through the party wall and into the cross walls to hold them together. Plus also the front and rear walls of the high level section of the building. If you saw it, you would better understand. Everything had to be connected up and strengthened and then braced with some steel bracing to withstand the wind pressures to which it would now become exposed and that all happened through the Party Wall Act.
Philippe: And after AKS Ward?
Shirley: That was probably about 10 years’ worth of my career doing the tunnelling and the excavations there, the grout shafts and the tube a Manchette which was one of the protection mechanisms that Crossrail had designed. Well, they haven’t designed it but they implemented them where you have grout shafts to basically compensate the settlement of the buildings and that was all very interesting to be involved in that. Really I mean the tunnelling completed a couple of years ago, my involvement in Crossrail has really only just in the last four months ceased to be because I did actually work one day a week for Crossrail and the remaining four days a week for Delva Patman Redler and I’ve been at Delva Patman Redler now for about four years.
Philippe: So what’s the next big project?
Shirley: We do have some amazing projects in our books. There are lots of basement excavations out there which need careful handling but there are no bigger basements than Crossrail. When I was at GIA, of course, we were involved in two or three-story basements as well going full length and that sort of thing. A lot of party wall surveyors will be familiar with that desire of building owners to develop full length of their garden down three levels, so that they can take full advantage of space.
Philippe: There’s a lot of discussions around whether the Party Wall Act should be amended or repealed. There’s a lot of stuff that needs updating in the Party Wall Act. What’s your opinion on that? What’s your opinion on the effectiveness of the act, its failings and what kind of amendments would you push forward if you could?
Shirley: I think you need to have a look at case law I think in this situation because the Party Wall Act came into being in 1996. There was very little case law initially and only recently it is coming at us. Not monthly perhaps but certainly maybe every two months, there’s new case law that comes forward. When you look at it, you can see that people are becoming more litigious. They don’t like being told what to do by party wall surveyors and that’s where you get awards being appealed. They don’t understand perhaps that they need to step back and allow the Party Wall Act to do its work, so that they can then carry on with their own development. People fall out, neighbours at war is a major reason for so much case law, the conduct of party wall surveyors, thankfully very few, but aggressively some party wall surveyors particularly when it comes to their enrichment at the expense of developers. It’s quite unfortunate. You have got an act of parliament which a lot of people have said is actually an extremely good mechanism and I think there’s a desire to roll it out on other disputes particularly in boundary determinations, so you can appoint your own surveyor. The mechanisms of the Party Wall Act are very tried and tested and do seem to work if they’re allowed to. But we have moots for example on issues like “are all leaseholders entitled to service of notice for works under section 6 of the Party Wall Act” and I think that that perhaps does need to be more clearly spelled out by the Party Wall Act.
Philippe: Yeah, exactly. So what’s the issue there?
Shirley: A lot of people say that if you’re a leaseholder, you only own (and it does depend on the terms of the lease) the plaster finish of your flat. Therefore you don’t have any interest in the structure. You’re not entitled to see the section six notice. But of course you just need to look at the Party Wall Act to see that an owner owns the space and they’re entitled to the maintenance of the structural integrity of that space and therefore they’re entitled to a notice. In my mind there’s no doubt. Some people say, “Well, that flat has no foundation.” But they are nevertheless above the excavations. So you’re excavating below their demise and that’s I think the key to it. There’s another area where I think the act could be clearer and that’s when it defines a line of junction, a boundary. We think of it as a line, a line on the ground perhaps. But I think it would be much clearer and perhaps better to think of it as a two-dimensional plane and the boundary is a two-dimensional plane or be it an imaginary plane. I think that would clear up a lot of things because structures – because they have three dimensions of course and that second dimension, the height, is critical I think to understanding how structures can interrelate on boundaries. On that, I think things like raising on a cantilever, that would give you rights of access to do that. It would give you rights of access to – if you had a single-story building on a boundary built up to the line of junction and you wanted to add a story, it would give you rights of access to do that and I don’t really see the problem with that. I think there’s also perhaps a case to be made for a building owner to be able to demolish a wall on a boundary and have the rights of access to that, particularly given that when he does that or she does that, you just need to say or to wait perhaps a day or two, say there’s no structure on the line of junction or on the plane of junction and here’s my section one notice and you have rights of access for doing any work that you want to do on the boundary in that way. So I think to be able to say to a building owner, yes, you have rights of access to demolish your boundary wall and then you have rights of access to reconstruct your wall anyway, I think that would be very useful and given that the act is a facilitative one to developers or be it acknowledging of course that they have to protect the adjoining owners, that would be a natural progression I think for me. There’s also the other issue when people raise a wall on a cantilever and they build just up to the line of junction. What happens then? Do any structures that may exist on the boundary below that cantilever – and I think that in that particular instance and in other instances, perhaps there could be provisions within the Party Wall Act to safeguard adjoining owners for the future development of their own land. A lot of surveyors will say, well, we’re not interested in the future development aspirations of the adjoining owner. We’re interested in what the building owner wants to do. But I think that’s very short-sighted and these things do come back to bite you, particularly the basement excavations. Quite often you will find that you’re acting for the Building Owner and you are doing that to the Adjoining Owner and, oops, all those decisions that you made perhaps have come home to roost. That’s what the act could do, be redrafted perhaps to prevent chickens coming home to roost and make sure they fly away forever.
Philippe: Introducing statutory fines?
Shirley: There is definitely a case to be made for non-compliance with the Party Wall Act. If you decide for any reason that you’re not going to serve a notice and just go ahead and do the work anyway, there should be a fine, I think. Equally, if you decide to just set aside the award and ignore it and carry on without the award in place, then I think there should be a fine for that. I do know the case in Brighton where a house actually fell down when the award was ignored.
Philippe: Because currently the only remedy you have is to go to court and that’s going to cost the adjoining owner money.
Shirley: I actually don’t think that you can avoid – in those very serious situations, you can’t avoid court. I think that lawyers definitely have a very important role to play in – surveyors, particularly where building owners are determined not to invoke the Party Wall Act. A letter from a lawyer can work magic.
Philippe: And all this, so you think that the RICS 7th edition will give us, will shed some light on certain things? I wanted to try to get someone on the podcast to cover that. Who do you think I should invite who would know about that.
Shirley: Yeah. So you’ve already interviewed Andrew Schofield, haven’t you?
Philippe: I have.
Shirley: What about Mark Harrington? You could perhaps speak to him or I mean Andy was – was Andy not involved in the redrafting of those guidance notes?
Shirley: I thought he was because...
Philippe: I think. I think, yeah. Jack Norton as well, I think.
Shirley: Yes, exactly. They’re going to be doing a roadshow, aren’t they? Going around the country and telling people about the new guidance notes. So I think perhaps – yeah, you could speak to them about that. I have to say regrettably I was not involved in those discussions.
Philippe: No, next – 8th edition maybe.
Shirley: Yeah. Eighth edition. Yeah.
Philippe: Shirley, thank you so much for your time.
Shirley: OK. You’re welcome.
Philippe: It was great. I’m going to have to cut you short here because otherwise, we’re going to be here for too long.
Philippe: And yeah, it was really good. Anything else you want to add from a technology expert? Yeah. You should really try Party Wall Pro I think and give me some feedback.
Shirley: OK, OK.
Philippe: Alistair back then actually had a look at the mock-ups.
Shirley: Yes. I’ve got no doubt that it’s of great assistance to a lot of people and the one thing I suppose is a – that I would slightly hesitate is – everything has to be bespoke really, doesn’t it? You have to – you can’t really use pro formas or templates.
Philippe: But we do actually – that’s the thing. We do offer customisation of everything.
Shirley: Yeah, exactly. I think of course pro formas and templates are a very good place to start. But you have to know exactly what you’re doing I think.
Philippe: Yes, bye.
Shirley's firm: Delva Patman Redler
Philippe: Hi, hi and welcome to another
edition of Party Wall Pro Podcast and today I’m very excited to
have Stuart Birrell with me from Murray Birrell. He's a Fellow
of the RICS and 40 years into the job, if I'm not mistaken.
You are also a member of the London Committee of the Pyramus & Thisbe Club. We have a few questions that our audience have sent through that we're going to go through. But before we start, Stuart Birrell, how did you get to where you are? Give us a bit of background of where you come from and how you ended up here?
Stuart: It’s a long story. It’s 43 years now
incidentally. I got into surveying by complete accident. I left
school, had enough of education, worked on building sites and
hurt my back. I went to what used to be called the employment
office to sign on and they told me, "You can't sign on until
you’ve applied for jobs."
I had been on a course with John Lane when I was at school. So I said, "Quantity Surveyor" and they said: "do you want to be a quantity surveyor". "No, I don’t. But you asked me to put a name down, so I have. Went for a couple of interviews, didn’t like them and I eventually ended up having an interview with somebody called a building surveyor, which I had never actually heard of. And I quite like technical drawing and is what you did in those days when you started. So I took the job and the rest is history really. That was in 1982. I became a fellow in 1995. Keith and I started our business 1992. So we're 25 years old now. So yeah, it has been a long time.
Philippe: Yeah, you've seen it all. So 25 years in the business. How is it going?
Stuart: Yes, it’s doing OK. We've grown organically. We've never been great businessmen. We're suppliers basically. But we've done OK. We're still talking to each other, which is amazing really.
Philippe: Yes. So how did you meet Keith and decided to start a business together?
Stuart: Well, yeah. We had virtually parallel careers. I met him at college in the late '70s and we qualified on the same day. I got him a job where I was working at John Pellings at the time. We became senior surveyors on the same day and associates on the same day, partners on the same day and eventually we left on the same day. So it's rather boring really. But yeah, met him a long, long time.
Philippe: And from the general surveying into party wall – I'm not sure what the kind of ratio party wall to other general building surveyor work you're doing at Murray Birrell. But how did you end up developing this specialism?
Stuart: You're looking for income streams running a business, within your skill set. It has to be within your skill set I think. Both of our history, we're contract surveyors really. That's what we grew up doing. Mainly maintenance and rehabilitation of existing buildings. You get involved in party walls when you're doing it. So you start doing it. You learn a little bit. You work with people. You listen. You learn. 15, 20 years ago, it was probably a negligible part of our business. Now it's about 22, 23 percent roughly and we do a lot of licenses to alter, we still do a lot of construction work. We do dilapidations. So we do most things that building surveyors do. But I sort of specialised to a greater degree over the last, last 10, 12 years I suppose really.
Philippe: And enjoying it?
Stuart: Yes, I do. It’s less confrontational than doing construction work. So it amuses me when people say, "Oh, you’re being really difficult." You don't know what difficult is." People want to punch your head off in construction work... I do enjoy it. I do enjoy it.
Philippe: Now that's interesting because more and more people seem to say that party wall is becoming more confrontational. Do you agree with that or not?
Stuart: I think general behaviours have become more confrontational and not only party walls. But it depends on what you compare it with. I think if you go into it to try and reach a resolution, you generally will. You have to be reasonable with a give and take and you normally get it.
Philippe: Have you found yourself in front of someone where you have no other way of just being confrontational.
Stuart: It happens occasionally. It doesn’t happen very often. But you've got mechanisms and you have to deal with that when it happens. If you're really, really struggling, you've go the third surveyor or you go ex parte if you're really brave. You don't have to put up with it, do you, if you don't want to.
Philippe: Yeah. Is it a personal trait or do you think it's an experience or lack thereof?
Stuart: I think it's a personal trait generally speaking. Sometimes it's a lack of experience and lack of confidence and people become aggressive as a result. But generally, that's not the case. I think there are just certain people who are that way inclined.
Philippe: So let's get into the meat of it.. As last time, we went out to our members and asked for people to submit the questions. So fees is something that comes up quite a bit. So first, I think, yeah, it’s a good starting point to start with what gives the surveyor the right to recover that fee and what constitutes reasonable or unreasonable fees.
Philippe: So I sent you the questions beforehand. So you know.
Stuart: I haven't had the chance to think about it.
Philippe: Well, you can deliver more value that way. So –
Stuart: Yeah, good, good.
Philippe: So here we go.
Stuart: Well, if you're instructed to carry out work, you have a right to charge them and recover fees no matter what it is. It's slightly different with party walls because there's a statutory appointment involved as well. So starting with building owner, you have to have a statutory appointment obviously. I always have a side appointment with it which is a commercial agreement with the building owner. Usually building owner's fees don't go in the award. You do want some mechanism to recover your fees if the owner decides he doesn't want to pay them. I don't really see any difference in that to any other work you carry out. I have agreements with my clients. They agree the fees and I charge them and they pay us. But you do have the right obviously. Before Farrs Lane the award would cover that usually the adjoining owner's fees would be paid by the building owner. Not always, but usually. But the debt was owed to the the adjoining owner. You had to transfer the debt if you wanted to pursue the fee. Post-Farrs Lane, you can actually put down that the building owner will pay the adjoining owner's fees and you can pursue it and it becomes a simple debt if it's not appealed. You can also put in the building owner's fees into the award if you want. It's not general practice but it's becoming more so. All I would say, if you're going to do that, I think the adjoining owner should check the building owner’s fees in the same ways he’s checking adjoining owner’s fees. They have to be reasonable. But if you’re going to rely on the statutory instrument, they should be works technically in pursuance of the act. So if you got involved in doing other advice on it, then that should be charged separately. That shouldn’t go in the award in my opinion. But you have an absolute right to recover your reasonable fees. As to what’s reasonable, that’s a much more difficult question to answer and it does depend on I think the type of work you’re doing. Obviously where in the country you’re working does make a difference as well. The fees have not just to be correct in, for example: I spent this amount of hours and that’s my hourly rate and that’s what it is. I think they have to feel right. You get some jobs and you look at what you actually spent and, you realise, “I can’t charge that. It’s ridiculous. It’s out of proportion.” Compared to most areas of surveying, of building surveying anyway, it’s quite lucrative work. I think you can afford to occasionally make it feel right as well as be right. I think that’s by and large where it goes wrong. You get a small domestic job and you have those who charge thousands of thousands of pounds. It’s almost more than the works, it’s just wrong. It’s the sort of thing that brings the act into disrepute. But as to what’s reasonable and what’s a reasonable hourly rate, the government in their wisdom, got rid of scale fees. They used to have a scale working out an hourly rate. So it’s what you can get away with by and large as far as I can see. If you’re going to charge an enhanced hourly rate, you’ve got to add value. I mean there’s no point saying, “Oh, I’m going to charge £250 an hour,” and you just spend just as low as an assistant would, charging £120. You should do it quicker. You should add value. It really should balance out. Years ago, on my first third surveyor referral to John Anstey, I got his hourly rates through, and this wouldn’t sound that high now, but it was astronomical at the time. I told myself: “Oh my god! What is this going to cost? But I said let’s “go for it”. Yes, his hourly rate was very high and the amount of time he took was negligible. I think he did the whole thing in 2.5 hours and the fee was correct despite the fact his hourly rate was probably three times anyone else I had ever met at the time. If you want to charge the enhanced rate, you’ve got to add some value. I’m not sure everybody does.
Philippe: Yeah. So the example of an adjoining owner’s surveyor is on the ball. He does his job but the building owner’s surveyor is very slow at coming back to you. The problem is, is that – and he comes back to you after three, four weeks. But during those three, four weeks, you’re working on your other 20 jobs. So you have to go back to your file. You have to – and that, you need to charge for that I guess.
Stuart: Yes, of course you do. When I’m a building owner and it happens – and it usually happens when they ask for some reasonable information that’s not available. It takes weeks, when it should have taken days because the building owner is not in a mad rush. You have to accept that’s going to happen. That is a reasonable fee. I mean if you’ve incurred time through the way your owners behave, then yeah, fine. The one that really irritates me is when you get a building owner’s surveyor who’s going on a fixed fee. There’s no definition of the surveyors’ roles. There is an acceptance of what a building owner’s surveyor or adjoining owner’s surveyor does as part of the process, but there’s nothing written down that says the building owner will take the schedule of condition, adjoining owner will check in, all those things... So they’re getting a fixed fee and they do next to nothing. Then the adjoining owner surveyor in order to get in over the line ends up doing a lot of work that you would normally expect the building owner’s surveyor to do. It’s wrong and it’s what’s wrong with fixed fees to be honest with you. If you’re going to do a fixed fee, you’ve got to do the job. You can’t get a fixed fee and then tailor how much time you spend depending on what you’re charging. That is becoming more commonplace and it’s worrying. It would be nice if we could define who does what. But I’m not sure that you really could as you’re both part of a tribunal, you are working together supposedly.
Philippe: That’s actually – it’s a good transition to my second question under fees is, "What is the current trend? Is that actually going upwards, downwards or is it –?"
Stuart: Trending what? Sorry, Philippe.
Stuart: Trending what? Sorry.
Philippe: The fees charged. So you’re talking about fixed fees. Are more and more people doing fixed fees for building owner work?
Stuart: Yeah, there seem to be, especially on domestics. I understand it if you’re building a small extension and you get caught in the Party Wall Act and you want to control your costs. People are putting in fixed fees. There’s nothing wrong with it. I mean it’s completely a commercial decision. If you’re running a business, you choose to do it. Having done it, you just have to accept you’re still going to do the job. You can’t go "oh, I’ve got it very low, so I won’t do it. I will get the adjoining owner to have to do my job for me." It’s not completely wise, but it’s happening more and more. Yes. There’s pressure on fees. There’s no restriction on who can be a party wall surveyor. Anybody apart from the owner himself can be a party wall surveyor. There’s no definition, criteria or anything. As more and more people become involved, you're getting people who are not experienced and just there as a way to make an easy buck, I suppose. Yeah, it’s going to become a bigger problem I think. We need to find a way of defining what is a competent party wall surveyor and someone who possibly isn’t.
Philippe: And there’s nothing you can do if you find yourself appointed by an adjoining owner and you realise that the building owner’s surveyor is on a fixed fee. You know what’s coming.
Philippe: You can determine with – the building owner surveyor straight up. You know, listen, you go and do this and that and don’t expect me to start doing your job.
Stuart: You can do that. It does help. You end up working with them to get it over the line because at the end of the day, you have a responsibility to both owners to get things sorted out and getting an award in place if there’s a dispute. So you have a responsibility. It’s just irritating to be honest, especially then when they can say your fees are too high. But they’re only too high because you didn’t do your job. It hasn’t actually happened to me, but I’ve heard it happen to other people.
Philippe: I was going to say this is – it’s probably what’s happening more often now. If you as an adjoining owner’s surveyor have to do all the work, then all of a sudden, they – you’ve charged X amount and this is far too much.
Stuart: I don’t know the answer. It’s going to get worse. There’s no question about it. I mean commercial pressures and people undercutting fees is bound to cause its own problems. The government have been for the last 40 years absolutely committed to free market economics and that’s it. You can’t control fees. That’s what the market will bear. The trouble is that when you have a statutory appointment and the rest of it. It makes it difficult.
Philippe: And with more and more “party wall surveyors” out there, it is bound to go – the fees are bound to go South, right?
Stuart: Yeah, nothing – no question about it.
Philippe: Except for the very few that are – the good people recognised and staff who can actually – who can ask for higher fees and therefore stay on the path.
Stuart: Yeah, that has got to be – I think that market will become more limited. I think the big developers will use the people they want to because the value is in getting things sorted out properly and quickly, as opposed to saving a few hundred pounds. But I do think generally there will be downward pressure on fees. No question about it at all.
Philippe: So conclusion, don’t get into the party wall business because it’s going to shrink.
Stuart: I think it will still be a profitable business and there’s always going to be room for people who are very good, whatever you do. I mean there’s a premium to be charged if you want somebody who’s really good at whatever it is. But know that eventually the market will balance out, which is effectively what the government – expected to happen. Unfortunately quality goes out the window when that happens.
Philippe: Yeah, right.
Stuart: But there’s plenty of people around charging eye-watering fees who don’t add value. It’s two sides to the story really.
Philippe: As in everything. So that’s good because we’re going to cover makes a good party wall surveyor. Before we get there, so second question was very specific and it’s probably a yes or no answer. So the example is: “a party structure notice with a two months’ notice period is the subject of a dispute and an award. The award is served before the end of the two months’ period. Can the building owner carry on with the works or will he still require consent from the adjoining owner to proceed before the two months’ notice period is complete?”
Stuart: Yes, he will. There you go. I would also say that – I mean two months to get an award, it’s doable. But it doesn’t happen when the owners don’t like each other. They will not respond. They will allow the 10 days to run out. So you’ve used a month before you even got surveyors appointed. By the time they decided they want to let you in for the schedule of condition, it’s now a fortnight and all the rest of it. You’re going to be over two months anyway and once two months have run, you can start straight away. So I would suggest that if you – you had a situation where the dispute was “I’d really like an award in place but we like each other anyway”. You will probably get consent and people do start anyway. I’m not entirely sure legally. And trying to get an injunction would likely fail I would guess. At the end of the day, we should be encouraging neighbours to do is talk to each other and reach agreement. You shouldn’t be encouraging disputes. You should be trying to settle disputes when they occur. But also they live next door to each other. We’re all going to walk away and leave it. They got to carry on living next door to each other. They should be talking. But the short answer is yes, you would need a consent, I think.
Philippe: How would you encourage that? How do you do that?
Stuart: I will say what I’ve just said to you. Look, I’m going to walk away from this. You’re going to be living next door to them for the forseeable future. Yes, there are certain things you might not like and things you might want to negotiate if you can to reduce the impact on you. But the bottom line of it is they’re neighbours. So treat your neighbours as you’d like to be treated by your neighbours. Again, that has gotten worse over the last 20 years. Neighbours are not as neighbourly as they used to be.
Philippe: Yeah. Yeah. It’s only going one way, right?
Stuart: Yeah. You can understand it when it’s a big development next door who is going to make a lot of money and making your life a misery, you can understand it. But when it’s actually your neighbour who wants to carry out some relatively modest works. – Again, in case of a basement I would understand... - I think try to be reasonable, try to reach a goal with your neighbour. There aren’t enough notices that are consented. Let me put it that way.
Philippe: Yeah. There’s a natural conflict as well for surveyors. Sorry for saying that. But if an adjoining owner calls you up and says, "I just got this notice," you have a duty to try and push that adjoining owner to consent maybe…
Stuart: I think we have a duty to point out the options. In the end of it, it’s entirely up to them, whether they want to consent or not. If it was one I genuinely thought they should consent I would get back to them a bit more strongly saying: “Why are you dissenting? What are you worried about?” I mean there are ways to cover most of these things without incurring probably thousands of pounds. What you’re saying is we have a commercial bias I suppose. I don’t think most good party wall surveyors would do that. I would like to think most of them would point out that really – you could comfortably consent this. It doesn’t through the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 away. In case there is a dispute you can rely on it later on. That’s the advice you should give.
Philippe: Well, that takes us nicely to the next question of, “What makes a good party wall surveyor?”
Stuart: Yeah. OK, that’s a lot of thought actually because there isn’t a definitive answer because you meet people from all walks of life and some are good and some are bad. Most of the ones I respect have been good building surveyors or construction professionals before they went into party wall. They had a grounding in construction. They understand how buildings go together. They understand a set of drawings, they can read them, they can understand the potential ramifications, what is likely to cause a problem, what probably can be comfortably put aside. These are the things I would want to see in a good party wall surveyor. Do you need to be qualified? I’ve met plenty of party wall surveyors who aren’t qualified who are very competent. One of the worst party wall surveyors I ever met was a fellow at the RICS. So there’s no absolute on that. I do think though if you’re a member of one of the big construction institutions, there’s a governance involved. There’s governance covering ethics, conflicts of interest, that sort of thing that you have to abide by. I suppose, yes, I would like people to be members of one of the institutions. So, they’re covered by the other things outside the Act, if you like. Whether you’re good at your job or not, there are ways of dealing with it. But the governance, the way you behave and the way you run your business is important. So, I think they should be members. At the moment, anyone can do it. Beyond that, construction, that I just mentioned, understanding of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996. It’s amazing how many people haven’t read it. They should have a copy of the Act. They should keep abreast of case law because it changes. It’s getting more and more cases taken to court, but still not very many.
Philippe: How do you do that, sorry?
Stuart: How do I do that? I keep – there’s a couple of solicitor’s firms that keep blogs and recent cases. I obviously go to a lot of the P&T presentations and I meet a lot of party wall surveyors socially. It’s amazing how often you end up talking about case law. But you need to make an effort. It’s as simple as that. You don’t need to be a lawyer and know all the bits and pieces, but there have been cases recently that they’ve made a difference in the way you should behave. I think it’s incumbent upon you as a professional to keep up-to-date. It’s as simple as that really. Beyond that, it’s a personality thing. If you’re reasonable and even-handed, most people will treat you in a like manner. You’ve got to be firm when you think they’re wrong obviously. But look to reach agreement. Don’t look to cause discord. Don’t look to create disputes basically.
Philippe: And do you think this statute should have defined a little bit better what a party wall surveyor should have been?
Stuart: Personally, I would have liked it to have defined it as a member of the construction institutions. They’re not necessarily chartered, qualified, but a member so that they are covered by governance. That would at least give some control over it, not a lot. You would have some ways to complain if you really thought someone was behaving badly.
Philippe: And you think that’s something that will be put in place eventually?
Stuart: I don’t know whether we will ever get the chance to amend the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996. I mean it was a great thing when it was done. The trouble with having an act of Parliament as opposed to an instrument is when one needs to change it. You’ve got to go back to the House of Commons and they have other things on their minds especially at the moment. So, I don’t know. It would be nice if we could amend the Act. But then again you would update it and then in a few years’ time, things would happen that you didn’t foresee and you would want to change it again. I mean that’s so – I doubt it is the truth.
Philippe: So OK, and education? Then obviously parts of that. So keeping updated, case law. So let’s go to the training part then because a lot of people have actually asked about training: “your views on common training for surveyors who want to educate themselves on the application and interpretation of the party wall and all that. Is current training available adequate?”
Stuart: There isn’t – an actual training, official training. You don’t have to train. You just call yourself a “party wall surveyor” and do it. At the P&T, we had guidance notes but that’s all they are. They’re guidance notes. I mean I don’t absolutely agree with everything that’s in them but it says “this is what we believe how you should interpret the Party Wall Etc. Action 1996”. They’re available to read and it’s amazing how many people don’t. We run – in London, we run about, at least 10 this year, evening presentations on various aspects. We recently polled the membership to see what they’re interested in hearing about. So we do that. You’ve got to be prepared to read. You’ve got to be prepared to do a bit of effort. In relation to case law, it’s largely on the solicitor’s websites so, you’ve got to go look for it. There have been a couple of recent books written on the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 by lawyers worth reading because eventually you will end up involved with them and you do need to understand how they think about it, completely different to the way surveyors do by and large. They read things literally whereas surveyors interpret. You will find a lawyer, depending on which side he sits, will simply take the literal view if it suits him and the other one if it doesn’t. You need to understand that. You need to have some basic understanding of how it works. Is the training good enough? It is if you’ve come through as an experienced surveyor I think. You will get involved in easy ones when you start. You should never take on a job that you’re not sure you can do. If you’re not an experienced party wall surveying, then don’t take a basement because it’s going to be messy and if you’re not experienced, and you’re not up-to-date with everything you’re going to struggle. But you’ve got a small domestic extension, the process is the same but the arguments will not. Get used to doing it and learn on the job. Hopefully you won’t be on your own. You will be working in a company with other experienced surveyors around who can guide you with that. That’s probably the best way to learn - off a good surveyor. I think it works to a degree providing that you are – you have that basic background. If you’re coming in cold and you have no surveying experience at all, I don’t know how you learn to be honest with you …
Philippe: But I think it’s probably coming from a – there’s a lot of theory to it and I don’t know if – are there any practical training sessions that are a bit more hands-on. I don’t know. Obviously –
Stuart: In companies, it happens. I mean I have junior staff that work with me and I make an effort to train them. I don’t just say go and do that. I explain why. I explain what needs to be done. I give advice on background reading. I quiz them about it. I have responsibility to train my junior staff and I do. I’m sure most of the other practices do the same. And that’s the best way to learn basically. But as you’re training outside of it, if you’re on your own, you really shouldn’t be doing it quite honestly.
Philippe: You mentioned the guidelines. It’s interesting because someone asked a specific question: “Do you feel the P&T guidelines accurately reflect the process, methods in use at the moment? Are they actually updated?”
Stuart: They are updated constantly actually and we have loads of arguments about what should be in it because they’re a matter of opinion. There’s a real lack of precedent legal cases on the Act. I can absolutely say they are updated all the time. They are looked at all the time. The reason it takes a long time to come out is we take a long time to agree on what we want to say basically. We’ve just redone the one on security for expenses which I’m not sure it would stand up in court. We will have to wait and see because the Act doesn’t define it at all. We take a stand, saying that’s what we think we should include because otherwise you hold the building owner to ransom. We will see what happens and eventually a case will cut through – probably a big London basement I guess. But no, they are constantly updated. I don’t agree with everything that’s in them but I don’t suppose anybody does. If that’s what the question was about, then they’re in good company. But they are updated regularly.
Philippe: Security for expenses is something that we might have to cover eventually.
Stuart: It needs a case actually to be honest with you. I mean it would be lovely to get a precedent judge to say that’s reasonable and that’s not what it should include. I think we will be very lucky to get that. It could include anything theoretically. It just says you can request security for expenses and surveyors can decide. The danger is of course that you decide on a limited basis the – someone loses money and decides to sue you because you didn’t include things that should have been included. I hope I’m not on the receiving end when that one happens. But you very rarely use money collected as security for expenses. I haven’t done it. It’s interesting if you talk to experienced surveyors that haven’t really. Do you ever have to draw on the money? And almost never for what it was actually originally intended for. It’s usually there’s a bit – you get the money there. So you get it done. But it’s a definitely reason usually.
Philippe: And to conclude, How do you see the market behaving the next 12 months with everything coming our way? Have you felt a difference already? Can you see it?
Stuart: The vast majority of what building surveyors do require somebody to do a building project. Dilapidations is probably the only major area that doesn’t. Otherwise, someone has got to decide to build something and there are no two ways about it. The activity has slowed, our licences to alter has slowed in Central London. Party walls is probably about even actually, but we’ve been trying harder to get the work. Brexit has made it an uncertainty especially the way they’re carrying on about doing it. I think the changes to stamp duty made an enormous difference in Central London certainly but it will eventually work its way through as people get used to it. It’s going to be an interesting year. We’ve cut our costs accordingly and if we get lucky, fantastic but I think we will probably be 10 percent down on the total turnover.
Philippe: Right, OK. But party wall itself, normally when people don’t buy or sell, they tend to extend.
Stuart: Yeah, that will be it generally. But that seems to slow down a bit to be honest with you. I don’t know. I think everyone is just sitting on their hands, waiting to see what happens. There is uncertainty and we need a boost of confidence and we certainly haven’t got that at the moment. It has come to the stage where you don’t want to read the papers, it’s just depressing, isn’t it?
Philippe: I hope you enjoyed this. Who do you think I should interview next?
Stuart: Who have you interviewed so far? Have you interviewed Michael Cooper?
Philippe: I have, yes.
Stuart: You have. You might know he’s quite opinionated.
Philippe: Yeah. We didn’t actually cover much. It was more about the – about him and his life and actually getting back on to just try to get into more –
Stuart: He’s quite a good value actually – if you wanted to. Who else? Because you’ve done Andy – he’s another one. I assume [0:34:23] [Indiscernible].
Philippe: Gram North, no. I haven’t done Gram North yet.
Stuart: It would be interesting with Graham because he was the heir to Anstey. He has a slightly more relaxed view than a lot of surveyors now they say. Yeah, I think you will be able –
Stuart: I think you should do it anyway with this …
Philippe: I will do that. I will try to reach out to him yet again.
Stuart: Yes. He’s not good at coming back to you. I will grant you that. He’s very slow.
Philippe: Well, Stuart Birrell, thank you very much for your time.
Stuart: You’re welcome. Thank you.
Stuart's firm: Murray Birrell
Philippe: Hi and welcome to another edition of
Party Wall PRO the Podcast. Sorry it took me so long to get
back online but we’ve been very busy with lots of new customers
for our party wall software and also developing a software for
schedule of condition that we’re going to release in a few
months, which is quite exciting.
I’m very excited today because I’ve got Andrew Schofield with me of Schofield Surveyors and he has agreed to come on the show because...you owe me one, right?
Before we dig into the questions, because this time, it’s a little bit different. I actually went out to our community of users and our mailing list to ask people – to ask you questions directly and we had a ton of responses. So I’m not going to go through all of them but we will try to at least talk about the common themes that came through.
But first of all Andrew, how did you get to where you are? How did you end up doing Party Wall and neighbourly matters?
Andrew: A bit of check on my background. Not a very nice boy at school. Went to sea when I was 16. Spent eight years in the merchant navy, went everywhere, had a thoroughly good time. I met lots of people, some with negotiable affection and well, I met a girl, came to shore, bummed around. Sold brushes door to door, worked at pubs, security guard and then one day I walked past the estate agents where I’d recently bought this flat and I had a young barrister sleeping on the floor to help pay the rent and I walked in to get a job and like the Boys from the Blackstuff – and started off as an estate agent. Did about 12 months of that and then decided I want to be an auctioneer. How to be an auctioneer? You’ve got to a chartered surveyor. Didn’t know any of this of course. Then I met an awesome building surveyor by the way, Mike Rutherford. He’s just brilliant and he – learned with him and went on to Brittain Hadley, partnership, then Conrad Ritblat, as it was in the day, as a senior. Then I signed at another practice for about 10 years10 years, went to Delva Patman where I was a partner and was there for nearly 10 years I think. And then I thought why not try and regain a bit of high ground. I felt that building surveying generally, the standards have dropped – I think the RICS, since the labour reform has changed a lot and I wanted to start something that’s a bit different, also on a different structure to a practice rather than having – I believe very much employee owned so everyone has vested interest in business and it’s a very transparent organisation as much as the people ask a question about – for example, what I earn and I answer it and there’s no hidden secrets about this. We’ve got a business plan to build it up to a certain size and structure it for longevity and it’s not for me, the practice really, I’ve already made the decision. When I’m 65, I resign as a director and they can keep me on as a consultant if they’re not sick of me by then. That’s basically it. It’s a bit of a swan song try to get a high ground, a bit more moral, a bit more – as I say, try and get back to the genuine core interests of construction and the inquiring mind that that requires.
Philippe: So what’s the grand plan? Because I’ve seen you’ve managed to poach some young talent.
Andrew: Poach? Poach? I am so hurt by that comment – these people came to me! They are – I’m really lucky, I’ve got the finest surveyors available really who are great. Yeah, they’re awesome. I mean they’re a lot better than I am. Everything we’ve – obviously Jack is a tour de force. He’s now a mediator with everything that goes with it. and Stuart Cobbold, whose background is in rights of light. Byron of course who is a trained architect. He has got a double qualifier surveyor. We produce really, really good stuff and we’re not cheapest not by a long way, but we’re trying to get the quality back, not just pile it high and set it cheap.
Philippe: Yeah, yeah. So, I guess 95 percent of your work is commercial.
Andrew: No. I wouldn’t think it was actually. No. I haven’t got the breakdown in front of me. I think you would say – well, when you say commercial, do you mean commercial client or commercial property?
Philippe: Commercial client?
Andrew: No, you can’t. No. In terms of fees, I would say 50, 60 percent is for commercial clients. Big residential development of course falls into commercial client. But then we do a lot of high-end residential stuff as well. It tends to be mostly where it has gone wrong or where the owner is nervous and rich and wants a certain thing. That’s what tends to be – surprisingly, it isn’t all adjoining owner, not by a long way. I would say in fact a good 40 – well, 50 percent of our work is building owner and normally when you have a practice, it’s more expensive. You don’t tend to get that. They tend to give you more adjoining owner work because they’re under the mistaken belief that the other side will always pay the fees. So not with us. We get parachuted in a lot. We’re very fortunate. People have been extremely kind to us as well, other surveyors, and we get recommended a great, deal which is mighty handy because one of the ethos behind the practice is very much that we really only work on recommendations from existing clients. We don’t do any outbound marketing. You mentioned yourself, you don’t find much about me on the internet and there’s a reason for that. Keep it below the radar.
Philippe: That’s quite interesting. So what’s the sweet spot then for a practice like yours? Is it high-end residential? Is it big commercial developments?
Andrew: I think probably – curiously enough, if there’s a sweet spot, it’s the relationship with the legal profession because the sort of people we’re talking about, they always have lawyers. They all have lawyers, no question of that. If they’re recommending a practice – like what we said before, it’s someone they can rely on. Someone who is going to give the kind of quality service the clients are going to need. So I would say that yeah, we have a good working relationship with lawyers. Yeah.
Philippe: Right. Well done. Not always easy.
Andrew: Ultimately ...
Philippe: Let’s get into the meat of things. So I sent an email around to talking – and to a mailing list, people that follow us and asking them to ask you questions. Obviously you’re used to that because you do speak a lot at P&T events and other places and one of the main things that came up was the – you need a notice for the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 to apply and how to invoke the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. So I will just read out the first one. “Can the Party Wall Act be invoked on a dispute between neighbours if the relevant notice has not been served and the works are progressing? In more general terms, does someone need to serve a notice to invoke the Party Wall etc. Act 1996?” So you’ve got certain views on that.
Andrew: Yeah. This is one of the odd ones actually where I get the impression that surveyors are fairly united on this, not entirely but reasonably and lawyers are fairly united. But there’s an opposing point of view, which is not usually normally – you know, I get a fair spread – I recentlyhadquitealongexchangea ndIprintedthisoutsoIcouldrefertoit,becausetwo lawyers, both highly experienced in this field. In fact three of them Matthew Hearsum, Richard Webber and Nicholas Isaac were basically talking about this. I think it came off the back, the talk that Alistair and I gave in Central London about a year ago. He fundamentally disagreed with us because both Alistair and I agree that the operation of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 is a process and you can’t dive in and out of it really. The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 follows a certain process. Now he disagrees completely. Nicholas Isaac swayed between the two but eventually came up with his thing. I think the thought was that under section 10 he said a dispute could be deemed to have arisen. It was this idea, this word “deemed” meant that you didn’t need a notice. It didn’t need to follow a particular event. I gave it a lot of thought and I came up with basically the theory that section five makes – follows a direct procedure. I don’t know if you want to turn to that. OK. Because it makes specific reference, the notice being served before disputes can arise. OK? I thought this made it – the dispute dependent on dissent or deemed dissent, having arisen – following the service of a notice. So if there was a notice under section 6, followed by dissent or deemed dissent followed by dispute. Followed by appointment. So in other words, it follows the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. It went – notices one, three and six. Then the procedure under section five, followed by the appointment under section 10. Now I felt that it was wrong to just pull section 10 out on its own and just disregarded the rest of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. It’s meant to be read more or less in a sequence. As I said, I am – the lawyers I just mentioned don’t agree. They think you can just look at section 10, use that word “deemed dissent” and pull it straight out.
Philippe: Is that because of the spirit of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 as a whole?
Andrew: No, it’s because they’re lawyers.
Philippe: Then the argument of owners would be “well then I’m not going to serve any notice”, right?
Andrew: Yeah. I think that’s probably right because they don’t need to. Of course in Onigbanjo v Pearson  BLR 507 which is the case which governs the circumstances where a building owner had served a notice. It had been consented to. The adjoining owner then said, “Right, your works caused damage.” The building owner basically said, “Well, tough, you’ve deprived yourself of using the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. It’s now a common law matter. You will have to sue me for damages.” Sara Burr and the other surveyors involved in that, quite rightly, said no and they followed the procedure under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. I think – I can’t quite remember the circumstances now. But I think she “10(4)d” the appointment for the building owner, they made an award for compensation which was appealed and it was held that that was enacted correctly and the award was correct. It’s very important to understand that a notice had been served in that circumstance. So the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 had been invoked. In other words, we’ve done the first stage of that process I just talked about. It had been served. It had been responded to albeit consent. So my own personal view on that is I believe that you have to have served notice. Now the next question is what stage can the notice be served, well it has to be served prior to the works being undertaken? Because it’s about the timing and the manner.
Philippe: So an adjoining owner discovers that one has been starting works, no notice, comes back from a three-week holiday and he sees that the neighbour’s started. What does he do then?
Andrew: You mean he started work without serving the notice, just – he basically – as well as I do, the way to do that is you seek an undertaking from the owners to cease work immediately and then the remaining elements can be dealt with under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 if and r emaining notifiable works can be dealt with under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. If he doesn’t do that, you take out an injunction. I’m not for a minute going to say that’s very fair. It puts a tremendous cost burden and risk for them on the innocent adjoining owner. But that’s not our problem as surveyors. We don’t write the law. We have lords for doing that. If that’s what they see is the way that these things should be done, then I’m afraid we’re stuck with it. That’s the way it has to be done. That’s all you can do. But there again, that’s the same for every part of civil law as far as I’m aware.
Philippe: As an adjoining owner, I would feel if my surveyor would come to me and say, “Well, actually yeah, all you have to do is go for an injunction,” I’m like, “Well, it’s going to cost me a lot,” and coming from a building owner, I thought, well, you will have a lot of building owners which would say, you know, with this approach, “I’m not going to serve a notice”
Andrew: I do – I completely agree with you. The times that I have been involved where an adjoining owner has decided no, I’m not having this and has basically gone for the building owner who has ignored the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 have always ended up with the adjoining owner getting compensated quite highly. I’m talking about far in excess of any damage that the adjoining owner may have suffered, certainly in terms of costs. I found that in my experience, the courts are pretty robust about this and I’ve – I know that solicitors are, quite rightly, cautious when it comes to matter of injunctions and they put their clients on good notice on the risk that comes along with it, the cost undertakings and cost, all the other bits and pieces that go with that. Not to mention the initial cost that’s just anything up to – well, between £5,000 and £10,000 usually. Not to mention that – you know, anything that might accrue just to go to trial. But on the few that I have had, the undertaking has always been enough. You don’t want to go further than that. A couple of them have gone to injunction and I have – as I said, in those circumstances, the adjoining owner properly advised, has come out of it pretty well. I wouldn’t necessarily say cost-free. It’s probably still costing them something. In fact that brings us on to it. An interesting question that you’re going to ask me later on, which I’m going to go back to when you get to it.
Philippe: Actually before we – so before we get there, so someone else asks. So, OK, building owner did not serve. Works are completed and damage was caused to the adjoining owner’s property. What is the correct course of action for the adjoining owner to get their property repaired?
Andrew: Actually damages under common law.
Philippe: So yeah, this is the frustrating part for an adjoining owner in that situation is hey, you’re going to have to pay up your solicitor’s fees and all that to go and try to get damages.
Philippe: So it’s exactly the same vein is if you’re not – if you don’t serve notice, then the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 won’t apply and so the adjoining owner cannot actually benefit from any protection under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996, right?
Andrew: The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 does – from that point of view lacks teeth, will – on the other hand, am I entirely sympathetic to an adjoining owner who doesn’t take any notice? So you mentioned the bloke that goes on holiday for three weeks. Yes, we all hear these stories. But really, it doesn’t happen that often. It’s mostly people who are so reluctant to spend the money. That’s the first thing or absentee landlords who don’t really keep in contact. That’s most of the effect. If you are halfway responsible, you will get – almost certainly get a notification from the planning office if the scheme planning permission. You will see the builders turn up on site. You’ve only got to ask the questions. You know, please give me an undertaking you’re not doing any works notifiable on the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. Please give me the assurance. Can I see your drawings? Talk to your neighbour. So I’m not – I’m a bit ambivalent about this as to whether the act should be beefed up or not, because I do think people have the responsibility to protect their own interest and not just rely on other people to go and punish their neighbours.
Philippe: It’s true, it’s true because, after all, it’s an enabling act.
Andrew: That’s right.
Philippe: OK. Anything else you want to add to that before we move on? Do you want to move on to the compensation, to section 7(2) ?
Andrew: Yeah. This was a great question but – by the way, everybody – the questions you asked me are really good. I spent quite a lot of time going back through my records and have a look at this. That last one you just asked me, so there’s – I have got an exchange of emails, pages about that issue, about all we just talked about, whether you need to serve a notice or not and as I said, it was a two-hour talk on it. Right. Let’s go on to this idea of compensation under 7(2), right. I think.
Philippe: Well, for full disclosure, I did send Andy the questions beforehand because I didn’t want him to just show up and then record it. So it’s also because it adds value. So the question was: “How far can Section 7(2) of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 be pushed or how powerful is it? Can Section 7(2) of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 cover adjoining owner rental losses from the building owner’s scaffolding being on the adjoining owner’s land subject to Section 8 of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 being followed to the letter of course.” So how far can you push it? How greedy can you be as an adjoining owner?
Andrew: Well, the example you gave me, the answer to is yes, it can. If the adjoining owner suffers a loss, as a consequence of access under section 8 and is directly related to the exercise of a conferred right, well then, yeah, absolutely. The big problem you get, is quite often that loss is very small. I had a case in Carlyle Square, in Chelsea which is just so expensive and the garden at the back was beautiful, a Georgian townhouse yard. It was about the size of a postage stamp and the next door – it was all beautifully laid out, with water features out the back and everything, but it was very small. The next door needed to erect a scaffold which went right up and this scaffold filled the yard area, filled it to the extent they couldn’t actually even open the doors to the basement to get into the yard area. The building owner was very apologetic. He wasn’t doing it deliberately. He had done absolutely minimum to do it and cut down the time and all the rest of it because there is no doubt about it but it trashed the garden completely. When I looked at this, I said, “Well, you can have compensation for this as far as I’m concerned because you are being deprived of use of your garden throughout the summer,” because he had that there for a few months. So the question then arose: How do you value that? Now I – yeah, one of my big strengths is dilapidations, so I’m very conscious of the rules covering damage to reversion. But I think there has to be a demonstrable loss to have a damage, something you can actually put your hat on. So I phone around the local estate agencies and ask: “How much would it be worth with a garden? How much would it be worth without?” It’s about a 25-pound a week difference. It’s the middle of Chelsea but it was ridiculously small. It bore no resemblance whatsoever to the loss of the owners suffered for not being able to use their rear yard area. So this left me in a dilemma and I spoke to the other side surveyor and we agreed that we could use that as a starting point but then we could enhance it by saying that it was – there was a circumstance where it was their home. It wasn’t rented. It had been forced upon them whereas the rental person would have a choice, you see. So I was able to – I felt – it was worth an uplift and we agreed and amicably we talked. So going back to your question on it – can it be stretched to that? Where you can show loss, if it directly relates to the exercise of the conferred rights. So that’s no problem, which brings me back to this other thing that I was quite interested in. We talked about the injunction. So along comes a building owner. Starts doing notifiable works without having served notice. The adjoining owner takes out an injunction. The court order is that parties will appoint surveyors and resolve matters through award. Now do you think in a circumstance like that, that the surveyors could award any shortfall in the cost incurred by the adjoining owner as any loss, right? Baring in mind it’s absolutely in the exercise of conferred rights because it is the failure to serve the notice required by the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. I’m quite sure the lawyers would say absolutely not. But it’s an interesting idea and certainly one that I would be prepared to entertain. I would say, well, I – as a bearer of very little brain, I think that that’s worth considering. You know, you just put down – it’s being forced into this position by actions of the third party in the exercise of a conferred right. OK. We failed to follow completely the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. He spent £10,000. He has got £7500 back. But he has got a £2500 shortfall. That is any loss or damage. We can’t rule it any other way. I’m sure a lawyer will come back to me and explain to me through some detail why I’m wrong. But I like it.
Philippe: You’ve never put that to the test, have you?
Andrew: I think I may have done once. Actually, yes, I think I did award an adjoining owner a thousand pounds from that. But by that time the building owner was battered. But I think I was probably morally right and possibly technically wrong and I do accept that. But that is the strength of surveyors. Be surveyors first, lawyers second. Do right by that, trying to do what’s right under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996.
Philippe: And actually in terms of compensation, what was kind of the crazy stuff that you had to deal with in terms of adjoining owners asking for X amount just as –?
Andrew: I don’t get that much.
Andrew: No. I ducked that particular one. I imagine you’re talking about that particular one in - is the Russian one in Belgravia which my colleague, Mr. Redler did with just about any other surveyor in London. I think they’re on their 13t h award now or something. If I’m appointed by an adjoining owner, I think one of the big things – so I emphasised in my talks is managing expectation, making sure that they understand that. And I won’t get beaten up. I don’t take instructions and I won’t do that. There are certain surveyors who are more perhaps interpret the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 in a different and then perhaps more partisan but I’m not one of them. So I don’t get that. If as a building owner, again, I’ve not faced that mainly because I think possibly I’m a bit more robust. I don’t let myself get – people make these sorts of claims.
Andrew: No. I ducked that particular one. I imagine you’re talking about that particular one in - is the Russian one in Belgravia which my colleague, Mr. Redler did with just about any other surveyor in London. I think they’re on their 13t h award now or something. If I’m appointed by an adjoining owner, I think one of the big things – so I emphasised in my talks is managing expectation, making sure that they understand that. And I won’t get beaten up. I don’t take instructions and I won’t do that. There are certain surveyors who are more perhaps interpret the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 in a different and then perhaps more partisan but I’m not one of them. So I don’t get that. If as a building owner, again, I’ve not faced that mainly because I think possibly I’m a bit more robust. I don’t let myself get – people make these sorts of claims.
Philippe: Yeah. That’s actually a good way to get to the other question of ...
Andrew: Actually, can we go back? Because I’m sorry if I’m going on too long. My only thing to add, I’m going to go back. As I said, I looked through my papers to find out about those sort of things. A few years ago as third surveyor, I was approached by an adjoining owner - not common. It is very rare to be approached directly by the owner because their appointed surveyors were refusing to deal with the matter. And so, via their solicitor came to me and referred it to me as a matter of dispute. And it really was an absolute poisoned chalice. Basically, the referral was whether, as a matter of principle, the raising of a Party Wall would result in diminishing the light into and the view from a window can be described as a loss within the many of the provisions of 7(2) the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. 7(2) the Party Wall etc. Act 1996: The building owner shall compensate any adjoining owner and any adjoining occupier for any loss or damage which may result to any of them by reason of any work executed in pursuance of this Act. Now, I should point out, the loss of light was not sufficient to pursue a right of light claim. It was only modest loss. I think the main problem here was that they had a sort of an office on a half landing with window that gave a nice look over everybody else’s’ gardens and that was going to go down. I concluded that as a matter of principle the diminishing of light and the view arising from the raising of the Party Wall cannot be described as a loss within the meaning of clause 7(2) of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. That’s what I had decided. The reasons were in respect to this was that under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 there’s no legal right to a view and there can therefore be no loss. Right? And I felt – I went on to say the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 does not create categories of loss that are not already available in common law. This is my opinion and I’m quite sure that for every lawyer, there will be another opinion but that was mine. I felt that that this would be an abuse. And again, it came to light and I said it is possible for the adjoining owners to have a right to light as an easement and therefore injury to this obtained by the undertaking building owners’ notifiable works would be considered a loss. However, clause 9(a) of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 states nothing in the Act shall authorise any interference with easement of light or other easements in or relating to a party wall. And that being the case, it was deemed that the building owners notifiable works notified pursuance to the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 could result in such interference and then award concerned would be ultra vires. So – and if the award is ultra vires, the loss or damage could not be considered in accordance with the provisions of cause 7(2) of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. That’s what I was getting to. So I think my advice to practitioners would be when considering any loss or damage, make sure it does relate to the exercise of the conferred right and not tripping over some other part of law. So I think this is a rather devious attempt to try and drag or make something that the Act was never supposed to consider just because the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 is rather loosely worded.
Andrew: But my award was not appealed by the way. And by the way, I should point out that I felt it was one of those third surveyor’s awards that didn’t really matter what decision I made. It was going to be appealed because it was one of those – one of them was always going to be [email protected]#$$ off.
Philippe: It’s true. If you weren’t taking this approach, you could end up in a situation where in the office for example, if it had been one of those artists that needs light and can demonstrate that as a consequence, the quality of his art as the mean to quantify the loss.
Andrew: There has been a case about that. I think it was a case about how important north light was to a particular artist.
Philippe: Oh really? Right.
Andrew: It was common what it was then.
Philippe: That’s a good one. Thanks for that. So let’s get to another question. Someone was asking, what is the best course of action to take where the adjoining owners are reluctant to dispute as they do not want to cause trouble and extra cost, however, they’re uncomfortable with the works. So it’s kind of what is the fine tuning of your – how you steer an adjoining owner into what direction. Any views on that?
Andrew: Yeah, brutal. You can’t have it both ways. And this again is the surveyor’s skill to manage expectations. Well, if you are – you don’t want to upset your neighbour or whatever, whatever it is, consent. If the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 has invoked and a problem arises again in the future, you can use the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 to determine it and you may be able to use the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 to determine it. But if you’re concerned about the works then dissent. It’s just as simple as that. Those are your choices. You can’t – you can give conditional consent. OK. But unless that condition is very gentle, for example, I quite often recommend to people, why don’t you just consent? I mean if I were you, I’d write back consenting subject to the preparation of a schedule of condition because that just protects both of you. All right? Or you might want to say, “All right. Subject to you providing details of how you’re going to come in my garden to build the wall,” or whatever it might be.
Philippe: Yeah. I was going to ask actually the conditions. What kind of condition precedent are there to granting consent? A Schedule of condition, that’s one of them. And it’s more and more common, isn’t it?
Andrew: I’d like to think so. Certainly, I get a lot of phone calls from a lot of people. And I do recommend this a lot. I say, “Well, let’s go through the works and let’s have a chat about it. What are they planning to do? Doing this, doing that. OK. Let me look have a look at the drawing.” So I will look at the drawing. It’s only that. If I were you, I’d consent. You’re going to live next door to these people, remember. There’s no point – if you’ve just dissented from their cutting a pocket to put a steel beam in at a princely cost of 1200 quid for the adjoining owner surveyors to be able to even agree to those fees, it’s probably going to be – they’re not going to be your best friends anymore. Let’s put it that way. And really, was it necessary? That’s a good question.
Philippe: Can you – and that was actually my thought because I’m currently an adjoining owner.
Andrew: Oh, you’re one of them are you?
Philippe: Yeah. Is to actually consent subject to me having a say in who they are actually using?
Andrew: I haven’t. But I don’t see any reason why you can’t. You can put any condition you like.
Philippe: Yeah, because obviously, the damage is going to be caused by builders.
Andrew: Philippe, how are you going to know if the building is any good or not?
Andrew: I don’t mean that as an insulting way. I just mean it genuinely. How do you know? Half of the time we don’t. And we do contract work here. And we do a lot to test the builder out. We go and look at their past projects. When they submit their tenders they have to give us certain information. We ask for testimonials. And that sort of thing goes on. I mean builders like any other business can change overnight because so often it’s about the individuals involved. And if you look in a modest domestic scheme, you’re either going to have, the chap who has been doing, who has always done it, in which case you’re probably fine. Or you’re going to find that he is particular, the one he particularly relied is going back to Eastern Europe for holiday and somebody else is involved. So you don’t really – it’s very limited value there. I would always say, probably don’t get too involved. It’s your neighbour doing the work. You don’t want that excuse, “Well, you told me who the builder was.” You don’t want to give him that kind of get out of jail. You want to look at the works. All right? Or meet them if you want to and let’s make a value judgment and just see what the impact is on you. If it’s excavations within 6 metres and it’s perpendicular to your property or to your nearest foundation, well, it’s only those few foundations running out that are a risk to you. So they are probably only going to be a metre wide. So you’ll bridge over that without any problem. Obviously, I don’t know your house. But if you have a rear addition stuck out and excavating parallel to it, that’s a different matter that you’ve got to be a lot more careful about. So my advice would always be do a value judgment of the works with the conditions. Reasonable.
Philippe: OK. So ...
Andrew: That’s a freebie for you.
Philippe: Oh yeah, thank you. The more fun ones, drones.
Andrew: Yeah, I did some investigation on this. I went – we do quite a lot of drone surveys.
Philippe: All right. So the question was: “Is sending a drone over someone’s property a trespass? And if so, what can be done?”
Andrew: Apparently not. Right. It’s no trespass because you can – well, it’s just not. It has something to do with Air traffic. You have to have – you cannot go over anything within 50 meters which is not under your control, OK? So in other words, what you’re over, you have to be in control of. So if I’ve instructed you to do a drone survey of this building, you can do that and I think you can go over within 50 meters of it. But you can’t go – that has to be in your control. I may have got this wrong by the way so do check it out. This is safety measure by the way. It has nothing to do with trespass. Except to take off a landing where that reduces to 30 meters. OK. Now, you can – you can get – this is where it’s applicable, to a standard commercially available drone. OK? You can be licensed to do more intrusive surveys by the CAA but it’s subject to what’s called an operational safety case. So that’s the health and safety bit of it. The privacy aspect is actually I believe your field, data protection.
Andrew: So, my pilot, my techy, his solution is to be very clear about this. He takes off and lands with the camera switched off. So he actually only – so he takes off. Goes over the top of the building I wanted him to survey, camera on. Surveys it. Switches off. He comes back and lands. So that way, he is only looking at the bit that I authorised him to look of on my clients’ house. You should always pre-notify. That was the other thing. So if you’ve got – I’ve got in Kingston at the moment where it’s fight between landlord and tenants and I will pre-notify the tenants of the landlord’s intention. And it will just be simply like this is what it’s going to be. This is why we’re doing it. And I will say about switching camera on and off and that sort thing. However, during this period, if you have any concerns, can you please close your curtains. You are not allowed to show anything that would allow to discover the identity of the individual concerned. So you cannot show the face or anything including such things as cars for example. And if there are any doubts on somebody, you should be prepared to show the images of what you’ve taken to the person concerned before you leave the site.
Philippe: OK. And you wouldn’t anonymise anything that has actually ended up on your film by mistake, right?
Andrew: I think mistake can be – obviously I think mistakes happens. That’s the general guidance. The chap who does it for me is ex-diplomatic police protection so he is very useful for me because I have to do some big surveys in some of the embassy’s down by Holland Park. And I need to do flyovers there and of course, it is surrounded by embassies. And we are able to get the consent to do it. I’m very lucky.
Andrew: We have good contacts. Yeah.
Philippe: So the trespass point is no trespass.
Andrew: No, I don’t think it’s trespass.
Andrew: But I just say, not really about Party Wall. I know I do. I know I do boundaries.
Philippe: Yeah. But I guess it depends on the height of the air space between the building.... Yeah, nearly time to go. So the last – someone asked the question about the Faculty. So that’s brilliant.
Andrew: Yes, a poisoned chalice. Again, I gave this a lot of thought.
Philippe: “Your views on what added value, the Faculty and Party Wall Surveyors (FPWS) has brought to the profession and process.” So I guess you as a member of the P&T Club. Are you a member of the Faculty or not?
Andrew: I’m not. I think I should sort of qualify this first. There’s a big misunderstanding about the P&T. The Pyramus and Thisbe club is a club and a learned society. It’s there to encourage the pursuit of excellence in the administration of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. That’s it. It doesn’t have formal complaints. It doesn’t have disciplinary. We have a protocol we expect people to adhere to. And if they don’t, what happens is we just don’t renew their membership. But it is educational. The Faculty of Party Wall Surveyors (FPWS) is a trade organisation. It’s as simple as that. It basically has members practicing in certain field. I believe it has, but don’t quote on this, complaints and disciplinary procedures that are set out. And of course, it’s prime role is to promote its members. So being a member of the Faculty of Party Wall Surveyors (FPWS) will give you a commercial advantage. And I think in truth, certainly outside London, it probably does. I have personal views about the perceived value versus the actual value of membership. But I think that a lot of people do put weight about being able to display membership and organisations against their name as displaying certain amount of competence and governance. In terms of actually improving the administration of the Party Wall etc. Act 1996, I think the answer is probably not. And I don’t mean that necessarily in a negative way because I think actually the individual members probably have benefited. But by doing it, they have a lot more people are involved and I think that they are where it’s previously perhaps the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 would have been administered by people with better knowledge of construction than they are now because, of course, the term surveyor is not defined in the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. I think there are certain things the Faculty of Party Wall Surveyors (FPWS) do really well, really, really well. I think where the individual members organise forums, I think they are being done very well on the whole. I’ve enjoyed speaking at them, where I’m being invited - and usually lively discussions. I think as I say, in terms of advancing knowledge and improving the performance of practitioners administering the Party Wall etc. Act 1996, I am less convinced that they have done quite so much. I think that the P&T Club, are much better from that point of view.
Philippe: So maybe I’ll have to have someone from the Faculty come in.
Andrew: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean yeah, there’s a certain amount of jiving going on but I don’t think we are very different. However, one is a trade organisation and we are not. So I think to muddy the waters and say that there is rivalry between us is misleading because we’re different. We do different things.
Philippe: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: I don’t personally see the need to be a member. I’m a fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. I don’t see the need to say anything else. And in fact, I would go as far as to say, I’m not a party wall surveyor, never have been, never will be. You know, I’m a chartered building surveyor and I have all the necessary skills to do that and a lot more.
Philippe: Yeah. Well, that’s a good thing to finish on. So anything else you would like to add? Any other ...
Andrew: No, it has been great. I thoroughly enjoyed doing it. Thank you very much for your time.
Andrew: Great questions.
Philippe: Thank you. I’ve got a whole list. So I – yeah, one of the questions I always ask is who should I invite to come for an interview next? I have – I actually interviewed Sara a long time ago but the quality of the video is so poor, I’ll have to do it again.
Philippe: So we got to get in touch with her again. Who else?
Andrew: Right. You need to make – you don’t just want people I guess pontificating like I’ve been doing. You need something that’s a bit more – see the other side of the coin. Perhaps some other people who feel differently. Perhaps you want to try people who are very notorious perhaps might be the answer, might be interesting. I don’t know.
Philippe: Who? Sorry. You were cut out.
Andrew: Yes. You might want to select a surveyor or somebody who is rather notorious and get their point of view. I mean one surveyor – I have to – who Ihadtobeinvolvedina–so we don’t have to disciplinary procedures but I did disciplinary matter within the P&T Club. He accepted the criticism that was lobbied at him and he said, “Look, I accept. The trouble is that people who come to me, come to me because they know that I am that kind of person, that I am going to be the kind of person who makes trouble if I can. That’s why they come to me.” And I kind of got that too because he – what he did was he didn’t do anything wrong. He was just very unhelpful. For example, he would deliberately not consent. He would deliberately withhold consent to special foundation, delay and delay and delay, prevaricate, prevaricate. Always giving the indication, “Oh yeah, you he’ll give the consent.” And then right on the day, no consent, “Oh, I could give you consent but it’s going to cost you 50 grand.” That sort of thing, which OK, I mean I always tell people, “Don’t ever rely on it. Don’t do that.” If they’re - not just said yes. Work on the basic and then say no. So really, how much – like it or not, the building hemisphere was wrong. Don’t be adjoining owner. So the adjoining owners, they don’t do anything wrong. The just played the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. And anybody who says, “We should apply the Party Wall etc. Act 1996.” They’re not part of that. You are appointed by an owner to apply the Act. You’re not there to educate the other side. If the adjoining owner doesn’t ask for section 11(11) it is not appropriate for the building owner’s surveyor to suggest it to him. That’s not our job at all. You’re there to determine disputes, not to make them. So I think in – so perhaps someone like that might be interesting to talk to. Other – I mean surveyors who I have a huge amount of respect for, and don’t agree with me on lots of things, Stuart Birrell, Jerry Pool, Michael Kemp , of course with the education side of the P&T. These are P&T members I’ve mentioned who are all I would describe as eminent. Certainly, there is not – one of the great things certainly about P&T, we do not agree about anything. I mean what usually happens is we talk about things and they decide that I was right and we call it a day.
Philippe: OK. Perfect. Well, I’ll reach out to those. Also, if you are watching this interview, if you would like to drop me an email at [email protected], you’ll see the email at the bottom of the screen. Feel free to send me an email with any suggestions or if you want to be interviewed or if you have any good questions that I can put forward to my next interviewee that would be really helpful. Andrew, thank you so much for your time.
Andrew: It’s really a pleasure, Philippe.
Philippe: It’s good having you. And have a good afternoon.
Andrew: Thank you so much.
Andrew's firm: Schofield Surveyors
Philippe: Hi and welcome to another edition of
Party Wall PRO the Podcast. I’m very excited to have Michael
Cooper with us today. Michael is currently a Director and Head
of Neighbourly Matters at Colliers International with offices
around the country.
Before that, Michael, you were with CBRE and Savills. He has over 25 years of experience and his knowledge is sought by many, including the RICS, who asked him to co-write the latest guidance notes for party walls. He is now also a London committee member of the Pyramus & Thisbe Club, if I’m not mistaken.
Michael: That’s correct.
Philippe: Welcome to the show, Michael. Very excited to have you here. So from your short bio, I see you’ve only worked with monsters. Colliers International, CBRE, Savills. Is that how you started?
Michael: No. Interestingly, I started post A levels. I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life and I joined a very small practice of surveyors as an architectural technician and this was through an introduction from my father who was a civil engineer and suggested that the construction industry might be a path to follow. So that was where I started off.
Philippe: And from there?
Michael: From there, I realised that this was a good career path and building surveying at the time was very sought-after professionally because there were very few surveyors around. I think there still aren’t to a certain extent. Then I went back to university. I got a degree and I got very interested in party wall surveying during that degree of course, and fell out the other end and joined a very small practice and started specialising in party walls, long before I moved on to the big corporate organisations that you mentioned. So it was through choice that I went into party walls as a specialism. But I did spend a couple of years with other organisations, learning general surveying and then got moving along to get chartered.
Philippe: So from very early on, you were interested in party wall. That’s quite interesting because normally people don’t kind of tend to fall into it whereas that was your path. So it would be interesting to know the difference working with the Goliaths of this world as opposed to the smaller practices and what are the kind of pros and cons?
Michael: Well, I think there are advantages to both. My suggestion is though that when, in party walls in particular, we come across a wide range of clients and from small residential development straight the way up to large commercial developments. But the approach dictated by the legislation itself is one of consistency. So it doesn’t matter if it’s a large project or small project. The difference between working for a large organisation versus a small organisation, I think there are advantages to both. In a larger organisation, the pool of resources and knowledge is more readily available particularly in-house and that’s very useful even as a party wall surveyor. We often come across things that we’re not familiar with and we use other professionals to advise us in the administration of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996. I think it’s quite advantageous to have those professionals sitting near you or nearby, that you can rely upon for that type of support. In a smaller organisation, you’ve obviously got to go looking for that type of information. It doesn’t mean to say it’s not available but it’s less readily available, should I say. But of course there’s also the disadvantages that come with a corporate structure and probably having to understand more internal law and how that affects your business on a day to day basis. It introduces an element for red tape. But I think from my own view, having worked in both, I’m a party wall practitioner. So I run a specialist team within a large organisation. I think that’s no different to running a small – a team within your own business or in a small business. Ultimately at the end of the day, we’re doing the same thing.
Philippe: In terms of workload, I guess in a smaller practice, you need to go out there and get work whereas in a big international corporation like that, you do get work from other departments as well.
Michael: That’s very true. Having said that though, my first corporate, for one of a better description, I was very much on my own and you have to still build up the confidence even within your own organisation. Other people will have clients and a client is a very personal thing, I find. It tends to be less corporate. Even within larger organisations, it tends to be individual contact and people within the organisation want to know that you’re good at what you do before they introduce you to clients. So nevertheless, I think you’re still building up a business within a business, whether you’re in a corporate or a small practice. It is about your own reputation. Whilst being in a larger practice does help for the introductions, clients are very – in the party wall world, they’re very used to using a particular individual for party wall, rights of light, or other neighbourly matters, and very reluctant to change. I think it’s convincing your colleagues and convincing their clients that you know what you are doing. I don’t think the work comes flowing in as much as you think it might. We still go hunting for it and we still have to convince clients that we’re good at what we do.
Philippe: So in terms of ratio, party wall support function of other departments versus standalone work, what would you say?
Michael: I would hazard to say that the majority of my team’s work comes through the contacts that I have established over the years. I’ve recently joined Colliers International within the last year or so and I think that there’s a recognition there, amongst the Colliers team that this is a very good service line. We’re introducing rights of lights services and other complementary services to neighbourly matters. I think that there’s a recognition there that we’re a growing brand within a brand. People are having a lot more confidence in us. So we’re going places, I think. Does that answer your question?
Philippe: It does. That fits in well with one of the questions that I wanted to ask you: let’s go back 25 years and what – how did you manage to get your first party wall instruction yourself? Not where you were working, where you got your first job per se, but as – you know, the first owner that came to you individually and said Michael, I need help with something.
Michael: Well, I had been working in the small practice for a number of years. Eventually I decided to sort of branch away from a very experienced and well-known specialist at the time and I went and joined a larger organisation. It was a client that followed me from an experience he had had with me as somebody else’s assistant strangely. He had the confidence to place an instruction with me as a named surveyor. I must admit, I had my own nerves at the time because moving from an assistant – albeit I was a senior surveyor, but still an assistant to a named surveyor into the role of being a name surveyor. I was quite concerned and I did as thorough a job as I could. Actually, we built on that relationship and he’s still a client now, I’m pleased to say. As part of his organisation grew and expanded, people joined and moved on and joined other organisations. They all remained clients to this day as well. So it was a great first job because it led to many, many more.
Philippe: So that was commercial. That was your first – it was not residential. It was commercial stuff.
Michael: It was a large house builder at the time and it was a job on the River Thames. It was a very interesting job. It was an awful lot that came out of it. I learned a lot. It was on the site of an old abattoir and before that, a candle factory and there are all sorts of issues with regards to contaminated land etc. large excavations had to take place, all of which were notifiable under the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 on adjacent properties. It was really interesting and a real experience and quite exciting. It also brought in other areas in neighbourly matters, negotiation of licenses for access, over sailing for cranes, all of which we went into and delivered for the client at the end of the day. They got a very good development and I’m very happy with what they had. Strangely enough, that same client went on to instruct me on a small extension on his house. So it wasn’t entirely commercial development. But it led onto a smaller residential development as well.
Philippe: So how did you do to develop that from: there’s one client that came to you and to all the way to a sustainable practice over the years. What’s the next step?
Michael: Well, that was a struggle. It took time. It was word of mouth, the one client. As I said, people do work for him and moving on to other organisations. I think you have to deliver. You have to be professional. You have to stand by your own convictions and be reliable. But also it does help when you are starting off. You have the time to spend on every job and every client and that’s something that I press upon my team now is find the time to speak to your clients all the time. Keep them alongside. Make them understand that you’re there for them because when they have the confidence to use you, they will pass your name on to others and over the years, that’s basically how we’ve developed quite a strong presence within the party wall surveying arena.
Philippe: This comes back all the time. It’s consistency and there’s no kid of secret weapon to develop a fast-growing party wall practice, is there?
Michael: I wish there was. I think you have to demonstrate that you can do it. You have to learn to adapt. The legislation itself doesn’t change. But the case law behind it does and you have to stay in tune with that. You have to be on the ball. You have to recognise what those county court decisions or even higher court decisions mean in relation to the interpretation of the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996. You have to be forward thinking, forward moving, and also at the same time, clients expect you to deliver perhaps more than what is on the packet and they want you to advise when something else might be coming, that they haven’t seen coming and be ahead of the game. So there isn’t a magic answer to suddenly getting clients.
Philippe: You said that the legislation doesn’t change but the case law does. How do you keep on top of case law?
Michael: There’s a very good network of surveyors. There are various clubs and organisations and some are better known than others and many of us are members of a particular club called the Pyramus & Thisbe Club, which is, as the club suggests, doesn’t make you an expert but it gives you the opportunities to meet with your peers and discuss cases that have happened or even be enlightened on a case you didn’t know about and staying in touch with other surveyors and understanding how opinions are changing or even how construction is changing and how we interpret that construction with the definitions provided by the legislation. It really is a case of networking with your peers and at the same time with the legal profession and keeping up to speed with county court or higher court decisions and sharing that information with others, because you would expect to share it with others as well, and it keeps us all on our toes, keeps us all enlightened, and we don’t necessarily all have the same opinions. But at the same time, we can help to formulate an interpretation of some awkward pieces of legislation or awkward interpretations and maybe come to a more – shall we say – or a better supporting argument where there are more people involved that have the same view and we could put that forward perhaps to encourage a discussion or development of ideas.
Philippe: So once you are in the circle, you will stay updated. So how did you get into that circle? So, as a young surveyor or even someone who’s just interested in the area, what’s the best way to get that?
Michael: You can join the club. You don’t have to be chartered. You don’t have to have any qualification. You don’t have to have years of experience. Come along. Meet with more senior surveyors and they’re always willing to share an experience or two over a beer, but also I think it is a case of asking questions, be prepared to listen. Learn from the word of the wise. I remember when I first joined the club, I listened to many experienced surveyors and heard their experiences. Now, I form my own opinions. I don’t necessarily agree with them all. But it was a great starting point for me and it was a good way to learn more and this experiences really – it is all about experience and being a good party wall surveyor is experience. But there’s no reason why you can’t have the experience of others when you’re learning and still being very, very good. You may not have had those experiences yourself. But to listen to others and learn what they did in a particular circumstance and how to get around all the problems will stand you in good stead.
Philippe: What makes a good party wall surveyor?
Michael: Well, I start with graduates that are straight out from university and one of the criteria for me is that they must have an interest in neighbourly matters. They must be interested in party walls. Whatever that interest is, is a basic fundamental to do party wall surveying. You have to have an interest and you want to develop that interest. The starting point I would suggest is reading the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996. Give it your own interpretation and try understanding it. Then there are books that are available and being written by eminent surveyors and/or the legal profession and you can pick those up and read them. I would start with what we call The Green Book, which is published by the Pyramus & Thisbe Club. It gives an interpretation of the legislation itself via sections and then it’s application. We always start our graduates with understanding the basic forms, the form of notice, standard letters, standard documentation and then we do take the time to teach our graduates the purpose for various sort of sentences or phrases that we use in various lectures, why we use those phrases and how it came about. So we ask them to look at the history of party walls and we try and each them the history of party walls and an understanding of why we use certain terms or definitions to describe certain actions, et cetera, because it is – primarily it’s borne out of case law and understanding of what the works are, what’s involved, without wanting to preach the Party Wall Act itself. The Party Wall Act is there to afford one owner its rights to develop. But at the same time, making them look closely on what they’re doing and in the context of protecting an adjoining owner and ensuring that they are looking after the interests of the adjoining owner while having what they want, which is the development. We start our graduates with a job shadowing surveyors and more senior surveyors who will take the time to explain both the work and the application of the Party Wall Act. Then we encourage reading and CPD and turning up to events like the Pyramus & Thisbe Club, various other organisational events and CPD lectures. It’s another advantage I guess of being in a large organisation. We have the opportunity to have plenty of CPD talks. So we do encourage our graduates to turn up and learn more about the wider world out there and at the same time, focusing their attention on party walls and neighbourly matters.
Philippe: What makes a good – a lot of people have been saying that the knowledge of construction is very important because you can know the Party Wall Act inside out, but you need a practical element there. So are you looking for structural engineers and maybe a background in architecture and that kind of stuff as well?
Michael: Certainly we – for our graduates, we look for people that come from a background of a degree in surveying. I mean that’s not to say that an architectural degree won’t stand in good stead as well. But a professional qualification or professional degree and where there’s an element of understanding of construction and construction technique. It’s very important when applying the Party Wall Act that you understand what the works actually are and it takes a long time I think to learn the subterranean world. Party wall surveyors can call upon other experts to offer them advice and I often use an engineer who advises me on subterranean work. That’s not to say that over the years I haven’t developed a very good understanding of subterranean development. But nevertheless, my knowledge of certain aspects isn’t there and I rely upon other professionals to guide me. But I do need to know what questions to ask them and I think understanding construction is paramount to being a good party wall surveyor and the understanding of legislation is equally important. But you need to understand how buildings go together and the potential for an effect on an adjacent structure, because after all, I think our role as party wall surveyors is to mitigate the effect of construction and to warn both developing owners and adjoining owners of the potential effect and not understanding construction, not understanding what drawings are placed in front of view, not understanding what you’re involved in would be a very grave mistake.
Philippe: So you’ve been doing this for 25 years. You’re obviously enjoying it. But the flipside, what is the frustrating side of being a party wall surveyor?
Michael: Probably one thing sums it up: We’re there to resolve a dispute and a dispute – the term “dispute” in its very nature is something that suggests two neighbours at war. The neighbours don’t need necessarily to be at war. They’re looking for you to come in and advise, protect property and protect assets. I think some surveyors do take it personally and think that we’re there to create a dispute. I think that’s a frustrating thing. I would suggest that many surveyors need to understand that the role of the appointed surveyor is really there to look after the properties and make sure that the committed works are managed correctly and the works are permissible, first of all, within the legislation. But then also to understand that we’re not at war with one another. We’re both on the same side and we’re administering the Party Wall Act and we’re there not to create further disputes. We’re there to resolve the disputes at hand. I think that’s one of my frustrations - surveyors sometimes look too far beyond the actual instruction. I’m keen to ensure that when I’m involved, that we look very closely at what we’re there for. We do advise clients on matters that are outside of the act but we don’t necessarily become involved with them, unless the clients wish us to, and we’re not there to create further disputes. We’re there to resolve the dispute or resolve the matters at hand. So my biggest bugbear is having surveyors run off tangents. They don’t deal with what they’re supposed to be dealing with under the Party Wall Act.
Philippe: So other surveyors basically.
Michael: Well, no. I mean it’s probably unfair to say that. It’s often clients don’t understand the role as well. I think that it’s very easy for neighbours that don’t see each other and don’t understand what the works are, who don’t know how to explain – to go off on tangents and I think it’s very important for party wall surveyors to recognise where these tangents can go – can come in and help to guide the client away from conflict and point of resolution of dispute. It’s very important I think in our role as party wall surveyors that we administer the act with an even hand for both owners and correctly – as the Party Wall Act advises and not be led by a particular client or to go off on tangents where we don’t need to be. Deal with the matters at hand and get it done properly and professionally.
Philippe: Do you have an example of a case that went horribly wrong?
Michael: Horribly wrong? No, fortunately. But I would suggest that there are occasions when construction techniques that are awarded are not necessarily followed and as a party wall surveyor, we’re not there to enforce the awards that we make. I think we’re often seen as a policing organisation. We’re the person that people could run to and say, “Well, the chap next door isn’t putting the temporary works in.” Unfortunately, the legislation doesn’t lend itself to being policed once the award has been made. It’s for the owners to seek enforcement of the award and that has to rely then on the legal profession and injunctions and other various sorts of nasty mechanisms. I think it’s when the award isn’t followed, either by an owner or by a contractor, that things can go horribly wrong. We are making an award after all that is robust and it should be followed, and that’s when it does go wrong, when it’s not followed and that’s when it ends up in litigation. And with litigation comes all the horrors and expenses Nobody wins in litigation. It’s the cost and the expense involved with it and that is really when awards are not followed and nobody wins when that happens.
Philippe: So to conclude, the listeners are the people who are interested in starting a party wall practice or who are interested in joining a party wall firm. A word of advice for someone who wants to start a practice from scratch. Where should they start in terms of even education and then where to go from there, how to get access and maybe get their first instruction without scraping the Land Registry website obviously?
Michael: Certainly not scraping the Land Registry website. Cold calling is really not on either. I think first of all, the knowledge of construction and a background in construction is essential. So don’t start trying to think that you’re a party wall surveyor or any other type of surveyor, without being qualified in some way or at least having a good level of experience of construction and construction techniques. Don’t offer you are a party wall surveyor when you haven’t got that type of grounding because you’re not in my view. A party wall surveyor does need to have construction knowledge. Where you learn that is obviously through development in the career and normally starting with a university degree and moving on to a professional charter or qualification with the RICS or the RIBA. That’s a good starting point. Learning construction is first. Moving on to party walls, it helps to have some experience perhaps with another organisation, setting up practice on your own, when you’re a chartered surveyor means that you can actually go out and practice any field of surveying and I wouldn’t recommend doing any field of surveying. I certainly don’t touch certain aspects of surveying in which I don’t have training or experience in. Stick with what you know. Know what you know and know what you don’t know. But know where to find the answer is my advice to graduates. I would also say it’s important to recognise your limitations and even in the administration of the Party Wall Act. I call in as I said other professionals sometimes, like an horticulturist for instance when I need advice on whether or not a tree dies as a consequence of digging up an excavation, or an engineer when it comes to all sorts of investigations and loading capacities and so on. So I think you need to understand the limitations. How you go about growing a business, I would say it’s reputation. Do a good job and keep the clients informed and one of the biggest mistakes that we have now with ever increasing technology is not picking up the phone and not informing clients the steps that we’re taking and it’s very easy for us to go quiet for two months and the clients get disgruntled with the fact that we’re not telling them we’re doing something, thinking we’re not doing anything when we are actually flat out. We need to keep clients informed and I think if you are setting up your own business or start a new – any profession including party walls or building surveying is understand that at the end of the day, we’re there for our clients and we’re there for their needs and for their developments. We need to sort of keep them appraised of what’s happening. They don’t understand our world. We’re there to help them, guide them through what can be a tricky process.
Philippe: So you mentioned technology. Quickly, any tools that you recommend, not our tool obviously. What kind of technology do you actually use on a day to day basis?
Michael: Well, it’s strange. I mean technology has developed considerably. We take condition surveys on dictaphones but now I can speak into my phone. I have my phone translate that to Word document. Print it out almost word for word. Technology is certainly enhancing the way that we work and it’s adding value. But at the same time, it can hinder the way we work, if we don’t use it wisely and too many people send emails too frequently without consideration and quite often repeating themselves and typos, grammatical errors abound and I think we need to slow down a little bit in the use of technology and start talking to one another again. But it is helping certainly with digital age and cameras, et cetera. When I first started surveying, we used to have to print out thousands of photographs and took ages to stick into the reports. Now we can send it all on a disk to the client. It’s very helpful. So, yeah, I’m for technology. But don’t let it take over and make communication on a face to face or one to one basis with your clients.
Philippe: Well, thank you so much. Who do you think I should interview next?
Michael:There’s a young lady called Keeley Matthews at Malcolm Hollis. She’s now a senior surveyor I think. I’ve known her for a number of years. She has an excellent way with clients, very good communicating skills and I think that she would be a good advocate for the profession and for party wall surveyors and she is a very good party wall surveyor.
Philippe: Great idea, because I’m looking for more women to interview. Michael, thank you so much for your time. It’s great to have you and enjoy the rest of your day.
Michael: Thank you very much. Take care.
Michael's firm: Colliers International UK
Philippe: Hi and welcome to another edition of our podcast. I’ve got Leo Scarborough with me, founder of Surveyo.co.uk I’ve been in touch with him for some time now. Good guy. So really, really excited to have him on today. Leo, welcome.
Leo: Thank you.
Philippe: So just tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you start in the surveying business?
Leo: Good question. Father’s advice. My father has been a massive influence on me. He’s a floor layer by trade and I wasn’t particularly a great performer at school, got my GCSEs didn’t get too much in the way of A levels and started out on a career path in the restaurant business. I was a barman, wanted to follow my dad into floor laying and he just dissuaded me. He let me do a few hours, a few days with him, kept me on for a bit and then sat me down and said, “You got to back up your ideas, son.” The barman job was great. It was a great payer at the time, at the age of eighteen it must have been and there’s kind of a ceiling to it. The ceiling is the amount you can earn. So sat me down and said it’s time to get re-educated. So having left school with little to no A levels, I’d spent a year in the industry doing bits and pieces. He got me work experiences with various numbers of his contacts and I started life then as a quantity surveyor. I got myself on a course first. On a part-time course and then found myself a job, the hardest way possible actually. 100 CVs, three interviews, one job offer and that’s where I started. So yes, started up as a quantity surveyor and soon realised quantity surveying wasn’t really where my passion lied and ended up as a building surveyor in a multi-disciplinary practice. It was quite a small practice, so I couldn’t get lost in the conglomerate of big companies. Not for everybody. It worked for me. But had to learn pretty fast and got started to take on various complex and senior roles from an early age and it really did kind of spur me to pick things up quite quickly.
Philippe: That’s the advantage of being in a smaller firm, right? You’ve got responsibilities at a much earlier stage.
Leo: Nowhere to hide as well. My boss was a really supportive man. He really lead me down that direction. He never pushed me but the work ethic that I adopted was certainly to push myself, to push myself as much as possible. He allowed me to do it. There were some really rookie mistakes I made in the early days. But actually he allowed me to make them and then, in a very professional way, came and scooped up the pieces, reset me, and allowed me to go off again, having learned my lesson.
Philippe: How and when did you decide to do it alone?
Leo: Well, good question. The actual decision and I always knew probably from when I started my career, maybe within 12 to 18 months, that I was going to be self-employed at one point. It wasn’t a rebellious thing against the hierarchy. It wasn’t the fact that I wasn’t getting supported. It was just a need to be able to prove myself. It was a need to have the potential to earn more. Money is not a driver for me. My family is. So again, a driver from when I was a young boy was always to have a family. Actually you start to add things together. The driver for me at a young age was to have a family and you start to put things together. You say, well, I want a family. I’ve got to buy a house. To buy a house, you’ve got to have a deposit. I’ve got to earn this plus live. Actually, it’s a very simple element of math. I need a house in this area that costs this much. I need a deposit of this much. I have to earn, et cetera, et cetera. So with all of that, I knew I had to be self-employed at some stage because the ceiling on an employed person wouldn’t give me the lifestyle I wanted. I’m not saying that’s all about money. For me, I can buy myself some time. I get time with my family.
Philippe: Mindset is quite an important thing. Because it is pretty scary to leave a good paying job and just start from scratch. Do you remember any of that?
Leo: I always had that from the start. I always knew that I wanted to be self-employed. There was the scary part when it finally came to a head. I got my degree after five years. I was on a five-year part-time course as a building surveyor. Not just party walls, but a plethora of building surveying tasks and jobs based around projects rather than valuations or anything like that, which is more project-based, contract administration, party wall, drawings, planning permission, that sort of thing. Then once I’d met my wife and we got married, I then came out of building surveying for a bit, went into contracting. I helped manage a small building firm and then went on to a slightly larger company doing project management and contract management work, all on the contracting side. It came to a point where I was moving too often. I wasn’t satisfied. It got to a point where I’d stayed with a small building firm for about 3 years, 3.5 years. I then skipped to this other place, slightly larger firm as a contracts manager. Spent only 11 months there and I just could not satisfy myself. So during that time, first child came along and me and my wife spoke and we had enough savings and we had our income and it was kind of a now or never. So in terms of scary moments, I wouldn’t say scary. I would say considered. Knowing that my CV looked pretty awful at the time, because I had skipped around a bit, I felt now is the time to give it a go. I wanted to move. I didn’t know where to move to. I interviewed for several companies before I decided to go on my own after this 11-month period. That was it. Self-employed and now probably wouldn’t look back. There are always options but I wouldn’t look back.
Philippe: So from a practical perspective, how did you get your first instruction?
Leo: I had an overlap. Although I had this period of time where I spoke to my wife, I always had something going on in the background. I’ve always had a plan B. There’s always something to move on to. I’d actually built up a layer of clients just doing some private work. Bits and pieces in the evenings, weekends, and that kind of built up and up, to the point where me and my wife made the decision to go it alone based on the clientele I had. Then kind of in the first month, hit the marketing pretty hard. But more by luck than judgment. I was actually recalled back to my previous employer to do contracting. That kept me going for the first eight months. After that, there was no need for it but it was mutually agreed that I’d stick around for eight months and then after that, the client base was there. It built itself.
Philippe: Sounds easy.
Leo: Yeah, yeah. Of course, yeah.
Philippe: If you had a word of advice for a young surveyor who actually wants to do what you did, where should he start?
Leo: Young surveyor. I would say educate. There are several trainings I’ve had over the years and the hardest lesson I had to learn was that it doesn’t come easy. Going back to those hundred CVs, before I started out on my career: 100 CVs, 3 interviews, 1 job offer. I was waiting... Waiting for something to come across my lap and it just didn’t happen. It just did not happen. As soon as I got my head around the fact that I actually had to try, that’s how I ended up on an HNC course before I actually got a job. It was because I had to plump for something. I had to go and get educated. I had to try again. I had to reinvent myself. I was too accustomed to earning some money by that point. I felt I couldn’t go back into fulltime education but there are so many different options now. You need a good employer to help you along the way. But there’s an element of fortune. I wouldn’t say luck. I think you make your own luck. But you’ve certainly got to get out there and as soon as you realise nothing is going to come crashing on your lap without you trying, then that’s the way to do it. Also I would say to any trainee I’ve had or any young surveyor is to go out there and get some work experience. People feel that you try something you want to do forever. I would almost look at it in reverse. I would go out for work experience to find the things that I don’t want to do. Even if it’s three days. Three days here and three days there, a weekend, kind of come and help you, et cetera, et cetera, just to see what it’s all about, just to give a test.
Philippe: That’s a good quote. Get some work experience to realise what you don’t want to do.
Leo: As I sit here now I know what I want to do when I grow up. I still don’t. I found it very difficult to sit down and say this is me forever. But you do what you need to do with the information you’ve got at the time.
Philippe: You were talking about marketing before. How do you market yourself as a surveyor?
Leo: Again, a learning curve. In a surveying profession or a service profession, I would say you’re selling a service. It’s not like I’m making something. I can go out and tell. I haven’t got TVs that I make and that I can sell out the back of my van. I’m selling my knowledge. I’m selling my professionalism. After doing a bit of cold calling and a bit of Google Ads and even Facebook, actually what I needed to do was go out and network and press hands and show my face and say this is me and be professional and approachable. For me, having worked through my professional career, up to the point where I went self-employed, I had an address book full of contacts. It was a case of going out, telling people what I was about. Being quite – not arrogant but being forthcoming about it, saying I’m ringing you because I want some work. I’m ringing you because this is who I am. I’ve done work for you before. You know me. I’m now self-employed. Again, one of the learning curves for me was that it took – I still work on it as a kind of rule of thumb. By the time you’ve asked somebody for that work or met somebody initially and told them what you could do, I say it’s 12 months from pressing hands to getting work. You sell yourself. You sell your relationship. You sell your professionalism, but 12 months from pressing hands to getting some work. That’s normally how it works.
Philippe: And for someone who has no black book of contacts, if you were to advise someone to go out there and get your first client, what would you tell him?
Leo: Relationship-driven. There are various marketing associations out there that will help develop. So I actually joined a networking company called BNI when I first started out. The learning curve in that 12 months. I didn’t just get to know to get contacts. I also got to learn how to be professional as a company. So all of the company aspects, the presentation, the standing up, being approachable. Even silly things like how to submit your VAT return. What to do with all the bits of paper you accumulate over a daily basis. I found that worked really well because I felt I was actually achieving something, to be out there, networking, publicly networking. So again it’s – I’m not sure – for me, Google Ads and Yellow Pages and things like that didn’t work because you’re trying to tell a name on a bit of paper that says “party wall” below it or contract administration or building work or whatever you want to do, window cleaning, plumbing, electrical. The market is saturated. If you look at it, the market is saturated. You type in “party wall surveyor,” I’m not the first one that comes up. Several people – you interviewed some people using your software. I’m the first people to come up. I’m going to be on the first page. But realistically, I don’t attract that much work through cold calls. Negligible, if anything. All referrals, all referrals.
Philippe: Yeah. How could referrals be improved?
Leo: I would say through work ethic. So if you look at the Party Wall Pro software for instance, that gives a very good professional basis to get those referrals. If you’re slick and if you are organised, and if you know what you’re doing at the tap of a button, then it’s certainly going to help generate more referrals. As a party wall surveyor, I see several clients a week, several adjoining owners, several surveyors working for the adjoining owner, or the agreed surveyor. I would say to meet those people and be professional and slick and know what you’re talking about and be reactive rather than on the back foot you can be proactive. It’s certainly going to help to generate those referrals.
Philippe: Talking about party wall, how did you get from what you did before and into slowly into party wall because a lot of your practice now is dealing with party wall. How much of your practice do you focus on party wall?
Leo: Probably 60 to 70 percent. I found that there were a lot of people out there that didn’t know what they were doing in terms of party wall. There seems to be a need for it. You’re feeding off of building projects all the time. So it’s not necessarily a facilitator. But it’s something that a lot of building owners or adjoining owners or even architects don’t necessarily know much about. A lot of architects will be able to produce the notice, send it off. But if they get anything other than a consent, they find it very difficult to manage, especially if they’ve got several projects on at one time. So for me, it led from a simple need. All of a sudden, I – I don’t know. I got 10 party wall projects in the space of a month, where we’ve only been kind of getting one or two before and it was a simple thing for me to go out and build upon.
Philippe: You make it sound very simple, everything.
Philippe: Yeah. I should dig a bit deeper. So in your kind of day to day job, what kind of tools do you use?
Leo: It’s all diary management for me. If it’s not logged in my diary, it doesn’t get done. To be honest, I even saw one earlier that I’ve – since I’ve clicked on the iPad, I realised there’s a photographic schedule last week that should be out the door. But it’s not in my diary. I don’t know why. I haven’t looked in my diary but it’s not in my diary. It is now but it will be. But everything for me is generated from my diary: hours, miles, jobs, where I am next, where I was last week, where I am tomorrow. All driven from there. Then everything kind of filters down. My whole filing system is built off the back of my diary.
Philippe: And in terms of the schedule of adjoining owners, before Party Wall Pro, how did you do it? All your adjoining owners, all the details and all?
Leo: Oh, just hard-filed, every time, everything. Like I said, live from my diary. So if I was working on this today, that would mean going to my filing cabinet, getting out my files, having a pile. Sometimes the files never got quite put away and they linger about and there are Post-it notes and various reminders. I mean in the morning I would have 20 reminders off my phone. It’s impossible. If you worked 20 hours, by the time you got into one job, finish that, put it down, picked up another one, you’re not going to complete 20 jobs in 20 hours. It’s just sometimes impossible. So all the reminders in the world just didn’t quite help me achieve my workload.
Philippe: So how is life now with Party Wall Pro? Let’s do a bit of self-promotion.
Leo: It’s slick. It just – rather than having everything on my diary, I still use my diary that says today I will work on this. But a very simple – I forget where your numbering system is, but the ones or whatever the filing number is are very easy step by step processes where your job is at the hit of a button, what notices are live, what notices aren’t, where you are. Party Wall Pro is great if you feed the information correctly into it. So the building owners, the adjoining owners, all the surveyor’s names. So for instance before I came in this interview, it reminded me that I needed to upload the building owner’s permission, the signed letter that says that I have been awarded the project and a very simple reminder but I’ve gone, yes of course. I went to my briefcase. It’s in there. Scanned it, uploaded it. It’s there forever. It will never get lost. It can never be misplaced. It’s not kept in a filing cabinet in my office where I’ve had to then answer the phone when I’m out and about and can’t quite get a hold of it because it’s in there. Party Wall Pro. The next thing is an app. That’s what we need. But just to have it on the go, open my laptop, hotspot. There you go. That’s where we are. That’s what we need to do.
Philippe: All right. So there’s no going back for you then.
Leo: I don’t think so. Not at all.
Philippe: So back to the real purpose of this interview, if you had to give just a word of advice for any young surveyor who wants to maybe develop his or her party wall practice a little bit more, what should he do?
Leo: Number one, educate. Get out there. Learn as much as you can. Read. It’s not the most exciting projects in the world. Not the most exciting subject matter. There are a lot of good books. There are a lot of good case studies. All the complexities of it. It’s process-driven but it can be quite hard to navigate sometimes. So number one is educate. Number two is experience. If you aren’t sure, if you want to adopt some more complex party wall matters, then get out there. Get shadowing. Get a bit more education. Get a bit more experience and just see if it’s something you want to do. It’s not all about enjoyment. But you’ve got to be able to enjoy it. You’ve got to be able to invest in it in order to succeed and really you need to get out there and absolutely identify whether or not that’s what you want to do.
Philippe: Are you looking for anyone?
Leo: Leading question. Currently no. But with the aid of Party Wall Pro, I’m sure there will be some need for it in the future.
Philippe: Great. So last question, who should I interview next? Any names you can think of off the top of your head?
Leo: I would say a guy called Barry Martin But he’s – I think he retired last year. But he was – he had been doing it a long time. It would be good for you to get some investment from the older guys, just to see what it looks like at the end of a career. Even like Rob Martell. Rob Martell and partners in Berkhamsted High Street, they are a good practice. They were set up in the 90s, traditional building surveyor and quantity surveyor in practice. Probably one of the few. I would try them. Rob Martell but I’m not – again I’m not even sure. His name comes out but I haven’t met him.
Philippe: All right. OK. I will look them up. Thank you so much.
Leo: No worries, Phil.
Leo's firm: SURVEO
BNI UK: https://www.bni.co.uk
Philippe: Welcome to another episode of Party Wall PRO, the podcast. I’ve got Jack Norton with me today and Jack Norton is a director at a relatively new firm called Schofield Surveyors, started by the famous Andrew Schofield and you are specialising in party wall, rights of lights, general neighbourly matters, right?
Jack: Yes, that’s it, neighbourly matters.
Philippe: So tell me, how easy or difficult was it for you to make that jump, to start a new firm like that with Andrew?
Jack: I was very lucky because I worked with Andrew at Delva Patman Redler when he left. It was May last year. He set the firm up, which started trading in June and I joined Andy later in the year, end of October. He is a thoroughly experienced surveyor with a very good following of clients and surveyors. So for me, I’m a lot younger than Andrew, it was relatively straightforward because of Andrew’s contacts. So he really carried us through the first few months. My contact base is much smaller than Andy’s. The first few months were slightly worrying because all of a sudden you have two surveyors to feed, working off one surveyor’s workload. By the beginning of 2016, work really picked up and, eight or nine weeks ago, we employed a new surveyor. So there are now three of us. So, we’ve built the way we wished to.
Philippe: What’s the long term goal there? Is it to continue recruiting and growing the practice?
Jack: Yes, we would love to grow the practice. The ethos is that ,first and foremost we are building surveyors and we’re building surveyors that might specialise in doing some party wall work. But we are building surveyors first. So we don’t just deal with the application of The Party Wall etc. Act 1996, we deal with associated neighbourly matters. We do building surveys, dilapidations, mixed with expert witness work on party wall. Also party wall projects gone wrong, boundary disputes and general construction disputes. So in relation to the staff we employ, we wish them to share the same ethos. No doubt we will continue to do a lot of party wall work.
Philippe: So for you Jack, personally, how did you get into this? How did you decide to become a surveyor and then specialise.
Jack: I had a bit of a false start. I went to university to do naval architecture and realised that wasn’t the career for me. So I dropped out of university the first time and got paid to go sailing for a bit and the classic: “I have an uncle who’s a building surveyor with a practice down in Sussex” happened. So I did a bit of work experience with him, enjoyed my time there and then went to Reading to do a building surveying degree. From there, I went into a very good firm of surveyors Daniel Watney, who are a multidisciplinary firm but have a very strong building surveying department. I got chartered there and then moved to Delva Patman Redler and I am where I am now.
Philippe: Delva Patman Redler is a niche firm. What made you decide to go for that particular niche?
Jack: I had a broad spread of everything at Daniel Watney and I particularly enjoyed what are deemed professional aspects of surveying i.e. dilapidations, party wall act work. But I had done nothing on rights of light and boundary disputes. Personally, I didn’t really enjoy contracts administration work. So it was an opportunity when Andy and Alastair offered me a job to step away from the contract admin and learn some things from some very reputable surveyors. That’s how I stepped into that professional side of work, which was exactly what I was after.
Philippe: So do you remember your first client?
Jack: First client? Yes. I was at Daniel Watney. It was in relation to a contracts administration job actually. It was acting for a trust, in Wimbledon - I was picking up a job which had previously gone wrong and it was a very steep learning curve. I absolutely remember it!
Philippe: So now as your role as a director, besides your bread and butter work, do you do any business development?
Jack: I learned off Andy and Alastair at Delva Patman Redler and we were all doing that all the time. Alastair’s and Andy’s ethos is getting on with people and quite honestly, we did a good job and the reputation just follows. We do not actively market and all the work we get comes from recommendations. The website we have is very simple. Just a very crude page. So everything is about business development all the time really.
Philippe: So if you had to give some advice to a newbie on starting a party wall practice, where should he start?
Jack: Well, it’s tricky. I think too many people start too soon and you’ve got to have the experience of working for a bigger firm to be able to operate by yourself, to have that client base and have that reputation. I was very fortunate because of Andy’s experience and reputation. So I was coming from an office where debate and education was encouraged all the time and that’s exactly what we do now. We’re always talking about everything and fleshing out ideas. If anyone has anything which they wish to discuss at the office it almost grinds to a standstill and we flesh it out. So people starting on their own, unless they are experienced in their own right, must find it very hard. It’s all about having the right people around you. I think that’s the key I suppose.
Philippe: So what kind of new challenges actually do you encounter now? Now that you’ve set up your separate business?
Jack: In terms of work, professional work?
Jack: I’m doing a much wider spread of work than I did at Delva Patman Redler. It’s going back to building surveying. I have a trickle of expert witness instructions coming in which was new for me. You see some weird and wonderful situations with those. I am doing a lot of mediation and have been to a lot of mediations as well. I can see that as a route to go down. Alternative dispute resolution and mediation might be interesting in the future. Quite widespread I suppose.
Philippe: Do you have your own client base as well?
Jack: When we left our previous firm, it was done in the best of relationships and we’re still very close with everyone at Delva Patman. Some people followed me off their own accord and the client base continues to grow all the time. Andy and I have our own workspread. For party wall jobs, for example, Andy will be named on his jobs and I will be named on mine. We’ve now got somebody who is helping us out.
Philippe: How did you build that client base of yours?
Jack: It has come through never saying no to a CPD session and just meeting people. So the Pyramus and Thisbe Club is a fantastic platform to meet new surveyors and other professionals. But I think probably most of my clients have come from work. It satrts with doing one job for them, they like me and they use me again. Or my name is recommended to people and my client base slowly grows as a result of that.
Philippe: So the first building owner or adjoining owner that you acted for in a party wall matter. How did you manage to establish that relationship? Was it through an architect?
Jack: I think it was probably through an architect actually. It was a very small residential job. I think he was a brother-in-law of an architect. You never know, there’s always a client around every corner. You just do a good job all the time and get on with people and if you’re any good, the reputation follows.
Philippe: That’s what I want to try to drill down into. You say there’s a client at every corner. How do you get to that corner? It seems obvious with hindsight, it seems easy. But you must have had, at some point in your career, a situation where you’ve told yourself “I need to build my own client base”, right? And what was the first kind of action that you took to make it happen?
Jack: I think it’s my reputation of going about work and recommendations. As I said, we don’t do any aggressive marketing or we don’t cold call. We don’t send random emails to people. We go to the odd networking event and these are a good platform by which you can meet new professionals and clients. But we’re in a very fortunate position where a lot of work is just coming to us and no active marketing is required. It may be at some point, but presently we’re fortunate it’s not needed.
Philippe: So networking events and P&T club meetings, getting along with your fellow surveyors..
Jack: Architects and solicitors, they all hold networking events all the time and we try never to say no to an invitation. Go and meet new people and that’s about it.
Philippe: So you mentioned that you had just recruited someone and – so how do you go about in recruiting the top people?
Jack: It wasn’t easy. We decided not to go through a recruiter. So it was LinkedIn and just spreading the word across surveying contacts and the chap we found is a qualified architect who has worked for some very reputable practices who wished to get chartered as a building surveyor. So we got the correct set of work to get through his APC and he’s fantastic because the important thing is he understands construction and understands drawings which is very good for clients. The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 is something that can be read and learned. It’s applying that to construction that is skilful and he has got the construction knowledge. That’s exactly what we’re looking for. But very hard to find. We were looking for quite a while. In the end, it came through a personal recommendation.
Philippe: Recruiting the right people seems to be a problem in your industry. So if I wanted to join your firm, what do I have to do?
Jack: Well, we are all about the surveying and the construction. So it’s having the background in surveying really. So we’re after people that like buildings, want to understand construction and then are interested in applying The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 to those situations. I mean, after all, The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 is a dispute resolution tool for construction issues. So you can’t resolve a dispute if you don’t understand construction. You see, people try to do that without this fundamental understanding and they don’t do it smoothly. So I think we really value the surveying and construction experience.
Philippe: So now, down to the more nitty-gritty of your day job itself, what kind of tools do you use to make your life easier? Anything that you can’t do without?
Jack: Well, we are fairly basic in our setup. We log on to a cloud system, so I can work anywhere. I can log on in a coffee shop to the cloud and I can work on what is basically my desktop access with my files and it’s quite mobile. We don’t have any kind of specific programs that we use over the basic Word, Excel, etc… Time sheets, we operate on Excel and party wall trackers and schedules and information, etc… is all done in Excel.Time sheets, that might be something that we need to get software for in due course. Quite a simple setup.
Philippe: That’s light. That’s good.
Jack: I think as the numbers grow you then need more complex systems in place. But with only three of us at present it’s quite straightforward.
Philippe: So this time next year, how many people will you have?
Jack: This time next year, it would be nice to have another one or two surveyors and continue to grow our workload. We seem to get a steady supply of the same type of work. We’ll continue building on that. We definitely would like to continue to grow next year.
Philippe: And your practice, your personal practice as such, is it more commercial, more residential?
Jack: Both to be honest. A lot of adjoining owner-owned party wall work. I think Andy and I both prefer commercial projects work. They tend to be more interesting and it is nice working with a commercial project team. The way that a lot residential jobs are procured, designed, build, contracted etc… makes them much more demanding than commercial projects and harder to control.
Philippe: You’d think that commercial projects would be more time-consuming.
Jack: It might be more time-consuming but it’s easier. If you get a commercial project with a decent team they design things properly. On a residential job, you get an owner of a house who might go to somebody saying: “make a new design and build me a basement.”
Philippe: The level of professionalism makes it more enjoyable because it’s easier.
Jack: Yeah. I would certainly prefer it.
Philippe: Have you noticed a change in party wall work over the last few years? Some people have been saying that it’s a little bit more contentious than it used to be.
Jack: I think if you ask a solicitor or barrister they have more cases now than they ever used to. There certainly seems to be more third surveyor referrals than it used to. Opinions vary as to why that is. But I think more people are now doing party wall work than they used to back in the days. The people who used to be the original party wall surveyors were thoroughly experienced surveyors that dealt solely with the application of The Party Wall etc. Act 1996. Now you get people who aren’t surveyors. They know very little about construction but their title is a party wall surveyor and they apply The Party Wall etc. Act 1996. I think simple logic dictates that without that experience and knowledge, you’re more likely to get yourself into problems.
Philippe: So is more regulation the answer?
Jack: On who should be a party wall surveyor?
Philippe: Yes, for the profession.
Jack: Yes, that would be a very good answer. For example, The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 doesn’t define party wall surveyor. If The Party Wall etc. Act 1996 did, I think – well, a lot of people wouldn’t be able to do their job. But I think the process might be done better. It’s a big fault in The Party Wall etc. Act 1996.
Philippe: Is that being discussed?
Jack: Well, I mean people have for years been trying to get amendments to The Party Wall etc. Act 1996. A lot of people would like to see it amended.
Philippe: That’s interesting.
Jack: I mean Andy, has contributed a huge amount to the Boundaries (Resolution of Disputes) Bill. There is nothing at present for the boundary disputes and they’re trying to pick up on some faults of The Party Wall etc. Act 1996. One of which is who can apply it. Who can be the surveyor. Whether that will get through who knows, but it’s an example of other people seeing it failing too.
Philippe: Yeah. Obviously over the next years I think Parliament will be busy with other things. Who do you think I should interview next? Any idea?
Jack: Have you interviewed Alastair?
Philippe: I have.
Jack: Anyone else?
Philippe: Other people in the pipeline. I don’t want to mention any names because I don’t know how I’m going to release them.
Jack: All right. OK. Well, I mean if you look at who is commonly coming up as surveyors, they’re all going to be thoroughly experienced people and very interesting to interview. So Alastair, David and I suggest the people involved with the Pyramus & Thisbe Club. Actually Ashley, Andy, David Reynolds …
Philippe: On the kind of the younger end of the spectrum, Ashley obviously.
Jack: Yeah. Ashley is – definitely worth interviewing. I mean he has worked with Andy for a long time.
Philippe: Yeah, he helped a lot in developing our tool actually.
Jack: OK. I think – what he was doing for a while. He’s a great surveyor. It could be very interesting to talk to him. Steve Parker would be quite interesting as well.
Philippe: OK. That’s a lot of names.
Jack: It’s a lot of names, isn’t it? It will be interesting to get an array of surveyors of age and experience I suppose for what you’re doing.
Philippe: Yeah, yeah. Actually someone mentioned I should interview some architects as well to get the kind of point of view from the architect and see what kind of party wall surveyors – what the qualities they’re looking for in a party wall surveyor. That will add a lot.
Jack: Yeah. No, interesting spectrum I suppose and possibly if you can get to talk to them. I suppose some big commercial developers. I mean they go for it time and time again. They’re the people who are choosing surveyors. So it would be interesting to see what they look for when they are choosing.
Philippe: Yeah, that’s true. If you’ve got any names, send me an email.
Philippe: Good. Great. Well, Jack, thank you so much for your time.
Jack: No problem.
Philippe: Nice talking to you and I hope I will see you in one of the P & T meetings.
Jack: All right. I’m always there.
Philippe: Great. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Jack: You too. Bye now.
Philippe: Bye-bye then.Jack's firm: Schofield Chartered Building Surveyors
Philippe: Welcome to another episode of Party Wall PRO the podcast. I’m very excited to have Nicky Major with me, my first female guest. Very exciting. And, so yeah, Nicky Major, one of the equity partners at Scott Davidson who started her career 20 years ago in Dorset, before coming up to London about, what, 12 years ago? Nicky’s practice focuses on high-end residential and was recently elected as a fellow of the RICS. So how does that feel?
Nicky: It feels great. It feels really good. I mean as you have alluded to there are not many female building surveyors which is my profession as well as a party wall surveyor, and there aren’t as many female surveyors out there and to be elected as a fellow, for me, personally I feel tremendous. It’s fantastic. And it’s a lot of hard work and… but I’m glad I did it. And not only just to feel good in myself but to show a lot of male surveyors out there that actually women can do it. So, I’m quite chuffed with myself.
Philippe: When you say hard work, how, what do you actually need, sorry… my ignorance, but what do you need to do to in order to be elected as a fellow?
Nicky: They recently changed application beginning of last year, so I was on the cusp of the new type but generally what you have to do is you have to prove, I think it’s 5 subjects out of (they give you list) of 20. And so you pick your 5. And obviously I specialize in residential high-end party wall matters and I also run my own practice, so I can pick the 5 subject matters. So what you have to do you have to write an… only 800 words about particular subject matter and… which is quite difficult when you got to squeeze every pertinent issue in there. And then you have to get a client or a colleague to say yes, that’s true and she’s not lying and I can verify that. So that’s what you have to do. It’s quite difficult because of course you have to find people who can verify that and choose them wisely so I chose couple of fellows and that’s what we have to do. It sounds easy but it’s not. It’s quite difficult.
Philippe: Well, congratulations!
Nicky: Thank you very much. Thank you
Philippe: One of the few women in the industry
Philippe: How did you decide to become a surveyor? How did you end up going into that line of work?
Nicky: Well, it wasn’t a decision, actually. It was so, very briefly I did a very random selection of A Levels, as you do. I didn’t have any clue as to what I wanted to do at school. We didn’t really have great advice so I did random set of A Levels and I had no idea what to do. Rather than go do a 4-year degree in something I didn’t really know what I wanted to do I thought I’d stay home and do a little HND and as part of that I had to do work experience of whatever subject that I chose and was literally a case of opening a prospectus of a polytechnic as they work back then. Finger in the air “I’ll do that course” and I happened to fall on building studies. As part of that, like I said, I had to do work experience and a friend of a friend of a friend worked in a surveying practice and said come do some work experience with me. So I did. It happened at the right place at right time. The assistant building surveyor at the time had left. I was thoroughly enjoying my work experience and they offered me a position on the basis I did my building surveying degree by web distance learning. And thereafter become chartered so that’s what I did. I mean back then, building surveying was not that common so only a few polytechnics did the course and living in Bournemouth, the nearest polytechnic believe it or not was London. So I didn’t actually want to commute daily to London. Oh, it wouldn’t be daily sorry, it would have twice a week. And, so I did the distance learning course which meant that you had to hold down a full time job and then do about 20 hours a week study.
Nicky: So there we go. So that’s random set of events that led me to building surveying.
Philippe: And so you started doing more commercial work and then switched to residential.
Nicky: Yeah, so what I did probably 70% commercial, 30% residential back when I was training. And let’s be honest, residential houses in Bournemouth are not very interesting. And so I’m a commercially trained surveyor with a residential bias back then. Then I decided to move to London, bright lights and all of that excitement. And an opportunity arose and I took the plunge, went to London and fell in love with obviously the London architecture. That’s when I immersed myself in residential surveying, so yes commercial trained I know, but now I know a lot about high-end residential in and around London.
Philippe: So is it a choice people have to make from the start, residential vs. commercial. Is there’s… is there’s a skill set that is different?
Nicky: I don’t think it’s a choice. I don’t think you need to make that choice. When you start your degree obviously you learn everything. But there is a vocational part of your degree that you ought to immerse yourself but I don’t think back then you needed to make a decision. And for me it just happened to be going with the flow if you like. So, so the multi-disciplinary practice meant that I learnt bit of everything and it did just happened that they are more commercial. I suppose today, the surveying of residential and commercial are completely different especially from a construction point of view. So, yes you then… I supposed towards the beginning to middle of your career you need to make a decision, whether you’re going to choose - commercial or residential. Some surveyors do both with the help of software for party wall surveyors. Some surveyors do a bit of everything and which is great. And building surveyors you can tell your hands to a lot of different disciplines. It just so happens I happened to now be a residential surveyor but there’s no reason why I can’t go back to do commercial. Or even… I mean, sometimes I do a bit of commercial surveying. Now, I do some dilapidations, I do some offices in the West End. So I don’t think it’s a decision you make, I think it’s a case that you have to learn not on the jobs as the wrong word but evolve with the jobs that you take on.
Philippe: So you came to London and an opportunity arose as you said and your first client do you remember?
Nicky: In London?
Nicky: Yeah, it was… it was a mad little lady and she had... she had a damp problem. And I was literally day one. Day one, I was taken to this property with one of my colleagues. He took me to the property and said “right this is the client and she’s got a basement that is very very damp. I’ll see you later, goodbye.” We had to deal with the Party Wall issues, chemically injecting a damp proof course, sourcing quotes, getting damp specialists in and dealing with the little mad lady… So, that was my very first client. And then I had some funny party wall surveyors on the other side who thought “oh, there’s a little girl! We don’t like women. We’ll make her life hell.” but it was a quick learning curve. Bearing in mind I came from as an associate director in my previous job I did have a lot of practice in dealing with difficult people, so it wasn’t so bad. But yeah, little mad old lady, in Pimlico as it happens.
Philippe: So you joined Scott Davidson from a… another firm where you were an associate director already?
Nicky: Yes, yes.
Philippe: Meaning you already had a practice that you then brought to Scott Davidson? How does that work?
Nicky: No. What happened was previous to Scott Davidson, I was with what I called the big boys, so large commercial multi-disciplinary practices. And I was with a briefly a big firm in the west end, though when I joined them it was more of a stepping stone to be honest. And previous to that I was with a large practice making my way up the rank so you know from an assistant surveyor to building surveyor to senior surveyor then Associate Director. But I found moving from Dorset area into London you have to take a bit of a… a drop in your position to get in London until they… if they like trust you, prove your worth. And make it up the ranks, so yes I joined having been in fairly senior positions before in the commercial practice.
Philippe: And so what is interesting. So the kind of the big boys vs high street firms . What’s the.. if you would recommend a newbie to follow a certain path what would you say?
Nicky: Ah, so a newbie having... let’s say the newbie having just become chartered, I would say join a big boys because they will give you the broad experience that you need to… as your foundation. The big boys will do every single discipline that a building surveyor will do from… landlord and tenant issues, dilapidations, construction, design, build specifications and party walls, rights of light and boundaries, they’ll do everything. So as a newbie recently graduated and recently chartered, I would say join the big boys. Get that experience under your belt. Yes it’s going to be hard work. Yes, it’s going to be daunting. Yes, you’re going to be scared but it will… it did me good because you get thrown into the deep end because you don’t half learn quickly and even for someone who’s recently graduated doing their APC, which is a two-year assessment you have to do to become chartered. I’d always say join the big boys. They can give you full depth of experience every time. Only when you know… you got 5, 6, 7 years post qualification, education PQE, then… then you can think right to make money what can I do let’s be honest, it’s all about making some money and enjoying your job. And then… then you can start thinking about niche practices but always as a new graduate even as a new chartered surveyor, join a big boys definitely.
Philippe: Okay. Makes sense. Good advice. So, jumping back to you what we are saying before so you joined Scott Davidson. You started your practice then from a scratch in Scott Davidson
Nicky: I joined Scott Davidsons and Scott Davidson had… it was up and running in the 80s. So they started their practice in the 80s. And I joined Nick Scott. The “Scott” in Scott Davidson. Mr. Davidson wasn’t around, he left and I also joined Mike. Mike had been there for 15 years at that time. So, I joined a small medium practice that had a good reputation so I was very lucky and to join this practice. And… and you know, they said, come join us on the basis that, you know, if you do well, you know, there’s a future for you here. In other words, you… you will become a partner eventually. It was very daunting I have to say because they made it clear that while we are a very good practicing a very good reputation, we are expecting you to either A. bring clients with you or B. generate your own clients. And… and having never done that before obviously with the big boys you simply get given the work that you do or not. And to generate your own business, clients, customers, very daunting, especially having been told you’ve got to get out there and network and that was horrendous. And I still find it horrendous. I don’t mind working but I have to do it if you want to get business, it is as simple as that. So yeah, so when I joined Scott Davidson it was like completely different. Completely different.
Philippe: That’s very interesting. Where did you start when you were told okay you have to bring in some clients. What’s the first thing you did?
Nicky: Got a coffee. No, joking. So, I mean I was given some clients obviously. I got the jobs that nobody else wanted. Let’s be honest you know. Here is the mad woman in Pimlico for example, nobody wants her. “And you can deal with her.” But you make the most of what you have given. And so I thought right okay what I do I will do the best I can with the clients I am given. When, for example I do a party wall job, I make sure I am uber efficient with the other party wall surveyors. I get my name out there with the other surveyors so they know who I am. And in terms of building up clients, customers, business, if for example, I go pick up the keys from an estate agent, I make sure I give a business card. I make sure I meet the estate agent in question, have a good chat with them, give some personality, and just make sure they know who I am. And so, I work with clients I am given. And then I keep in contact. Keep in contact and then eventually, bit by bit by bit they remember you. And they say I remember Nicky, she is the one that said hello, she’s the one that spoke to me and she was the efficient one. And eventually you will then pick up clients word of mouth, repeat business, recommendations. And… and that’s how I started from the bottom of the pile and just keep on at it, keep working keep working and make sure that people remember you. Phone them, email them until they say “let’s give her a referral to shut her up”.
Philippe: I have to say, I remember because we met… we met at a P&T lunch a while ago and I remember I was sitting next to you and you got this energy about you that people will remember you, so I guess it works. And, but, in terms of networking, any particular events that you have to go to start showing your face somewhere.
Nicky: Yes, there are business forums. I mean there is a forum called “Women in property” and so I started off going to those forums – women in property. And met a few people there and gave business cards. Other things, the RICS events, mainly that’s surveyor-esque so you don’t get many clients. Solicitors tend to have drinks evening and things that you get yourself invited. You must be invited you can’t just turn up. They are very good because they have builders, architect and things like that. And it’s just basically making sure that you are aware of what’s going on. Estate Agents, particularly around Christmas time, do cocktails in their offices. That kind of a thing. And also what I tend to do as well… I mean long gone is the day when you would have a long boozy lunch with clients and people unfortunately, I remember back in the day when on a Friday you wouldn’t go back to work after lunch. Unfortunately people don’t want it that way anymore. Some do but most don’t, so I find, a meeting for a light lunch, meeting for coffee and that sort of thing works. But I digress.
Philippe: It’s a long process. There’s no really a shortcut, isn’t it?
Nicky: No, no, and this is what I keep telling my colleague. He joined us couple of years ago and he’s desperate to get a good client base. I said to him I’ve been here 12 years. It’s started to happen to me a couple of years ago, that was 10 years ago and it’s a long, long hard process. And you just have to keep at it. Keep at it. Keep at it. And the minute you stop people will forget about you. Because when you stop people just forget. It’s a long, long process not a short sharp solution. There are a couple of small practices that I know who the principals are retiring and so do you want to buy the business and I say well, for it’s all about goodwill. People go to you, Mr. X, not your practice. So you can’t buy that. When you retire, yes naturally they will go elsewhere, but you can’t just buy practices and take on from where they left off. It’s doesn’t work that way.
Philippe: Yeah, you need a transition period.
Nicky: Transition period and also they have to trust you. So yeah that is a long process.
Philippe: And, so in terms of party wall work and software for party wall surveyors, how much of your practices is focusing on party wall work?
Nicky: It depends on the state of the economy to be honest.. Before things happened... most of our work, I’d probably say 65% of our business was building surveys on the residential high-end for purchases. People buying property. And the rest party wall work. Following certain events, things have changed because there aren’t many transactions happening. So we are now able to turn our attention to party wall work. Now I would say 75% of our business is party wall work at the moment. But because we are small and dynamic we are able to fluctuate between building surveys and party wall work. But that is all we do, building surveys and party wall work.
Philippe: And so party wall work, is that as a result of your existing relationships or is it a part of the business that you can focus on developing?
Nicky: Bit of both. I have a lot of good relations with a lot of architects and a lot of builders. And it’s those who mainly recommend us as party wall surveyors. They are the existing relationships and then… and then from those jobs you can now work it and for example meet the builder, if you were referred by the architect, make sure you meet the builder, who may recommend you for his next job and then so it continues. You may construct a good relationship with the surveyors for the next property. Under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996, there is a mechanism whereby surveyors can appoint you if the owners don’t appoint their own surveyor, so if you get on with another surveyor you might receive further appointments from them. So I think it’s working with what you’ve got and expanding with what you’ve got. Architects are a funny fish actually, they have their preferred surveyor and they won’t deviate unless you prove yourself. It’s always good to start from someone you know rather than going cold.
Philippe: So, if you want to start a party wall practice the best way to start is try get some architects to get you some work with or without a software for party wall surveyors.
Nicky: Absolutely, so for someone who wants to start a practice from scratch, get a friendly builder. How you get a friendly builder I have no idea but somehow you get a friendly builder. Find a friendly architect. It might even be called calling, popping up at their office, dropping by building sights. I know it’s difficult. I hate doing it but it’s the only way to start. Get on board with a builder and say to them “look give me a chance, this is what I can do for you”. Perhaps reduce your fees to begin with, and make sure you do a really good job and then they will eventually recommend you for other jobs. But, start with a friendly builder, friendly architect and hopefully you should be okay.
Philippe: That’s great practical advice. So party wall work itself, what do enjoy about it? Or what do you dislike about it?
Nicky: Party wall work, and this is no secret. All surveyors, all good surveyors know this. Party wall work has changed massively over the last 5 years or so. It used to be enjoyable, it used to be a case of...I mean going back a bit... not many people know this, I’ll explain: Party wall surveyors are… we don’t have clients. Once somebody appoints us, whether it’s the neighbour or the person who does the work. The adjoining owner or the building owner. Once they appoint us we can’t be disinstructed because we are appointed by statute. So the law appoints us. So we work for the wall, if you like. Not many people are aware of that. So we are impartial. And we can’t start arguing with other surveyor for the next door neighbour because we are meant to be the same. We are meant to be singing from the same hymn sheet. So five or so years previous, that’s exactly what surveyors used to do. We used to meet up. We used to agree what work needed to be done, did the schedule of condition. We were both very friendly, very happy. Resolved everything, produced the award and works could get started.. Nowadays, and I have an idea why but I would not say... so many surveyors think it’s them versus you. Let’s see what I can get away with. Let’s see what we can get for you Mr. client. Oh sorry you’re not my client. You are my owner. So that makes it very contentious and very confrontational. And most surveyors don’t like confrontations and that’s why we are surveyors . We like buildings and we don’t talk back. So it’s become very confrontational and very difficult especially with basements. Personally I think basements are fine so long as they’re designed correctly. But a lot of surveyors think that they’re the devil incarnate and you shouldn’t have a basement. And therefore, they want to make your life as difficult as possible. So, unfortunately paryt wall work, at the moment, is quite confrontational, very difficult and with it, fees are going up and up and up despite the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 saying that fees have to be reasonable,; it’s an enabling act; building owners are allowed to develop their land and their buildings; but still, the adjoining owners probably with advice from their party wall surveyors think that they are not allowed to develop their land. So it’s not as enjoyable as it used to be. Having said that, there’s still a lot of old school Party wall surveyors who are professional, know what they are doing. And it is those jobs that are very nice and easy and you get satisfaction. And I like it when a big stack of awards land on my desk and I can sign the awards, send them off with my fee accounts. So yes, I think that the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 needs to be updated. I mean it only came about in 1996 which took over the London Building Act, but I think it needs updating to quash a lot of this unnecessary aggression and me vs you.
Philippe: I would actually love to hear what reasons you think have started this confrontational approach? Is it just a general attitude of people? Or breed?
Nicky: Basements have always been dug for many years but I think the press covered a couple of incidents involving basements, I won’t mention a name, and the press decided to focus on basements saying it’s the worst thing ever and said “look they cause houses to collapse”. Okay one or two houses had suffered from damage that have been in the news but they are in the minority. So I think the press hasn’t helped. The other thing is that you don’t have to be qualified to be a party wall surveyor. Anyone can be a party wall surveyor. Anyone. Unlike a building surveyor where you have to be chartered. So there is no governing body governing party wall surveyors. Anyone can. And I think a lot of people have decided to become party wall surveyors and they don’t really understand the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. It’s an enabling act, you don’t have a client, you have an appointing owner...And that is it. So I think it’s a combination of: people who are new to party wall surveying don’t understand the act and I think all the hype surrounding basements. I think that’s probably a lot to do with it. To be honest. I think there ought to be a body that has to be put in place to monitor party wall surveyors that you have to be a member of. There are two clubs, dominant clubs at the moment : the Pyramus and Thisbe as you know and the Faculty of Party Wall Surveyors. If you are a good party wall surveyor you will be a member of either both or one and that’s good especially the faculty because the faculty you have to sit an interview, you have to answer questions and things like that.
Philippe: So it’s stamp of approval. So any owner who wants to appoints a party wall surveyor try to see if there is a stamp of the P&T or the FPWS on there.
Nicky: Yes, absolutely
Philippe: And so in terms of the day today, party wall work? Any tools that you use? Any software for party wall surveyors? Obviously I need to bring that up. Anything to make your life easier that you use?
Nicky: I would love a machine, if you can invent one, that will help with the schedule of condition. Software that will take the photographs, print it on the paper and have everything in order. Schedules of Condition for every party wall surveyor are dreadful. I mean they take forever to do. What you do is you usually dictate into your dictaphone. “There is a crack on the left of the window”. Take a photo. Brilliant. “There’s a crack to the right of the window”. Take a photo. Brilliant. But invariably what will happen is, when you get back to the office your secretary can’t really understand your dictation so you get all sorts of funny words. Then you look at your photos and it’s a sea of white walls with no cracks because of course a camera doesn’t really pick up a little crack on a white wall. So you are looking at your photos and you’re looking at the words and you think oh my goodness this is gonna take me weeks now to try and resolve what on earth have I done. So if you invent something for schedules of condition: put the photos, put the texts and spit it out the other end, brilliant!
Philippe: Okay, done. Who should you I interview next? Last question.
Nicky: Architects.Interview an architect. From a party wall perspective because they invariably… they have the initial contact with the person you wants to do the work. So they get to speak to the client, let’s call them a client because they are the client of the architect. And they speak with client direct. They understand the client and then it’s the architect in some situations who picks the party wall surveyor and I would be interested to know what an architect looks for in a party wall surveyor and what an architect expects from a party wall surveyor. That would be interesting.
Philippe: Good point, yeah, yeah, I like that.
Philippe: I’ll drop you a line to ask if you have anyone that you can introduce me to.
Nicky: I do
Philippe: I’m sure you do. Nicky, thank you so much.
Nicky: No problem
Philippe: I’m sure you do. Nicky, thank you so much.
Nicky: No problem
Philippe: It’s great great chat and I hope I see you in person again soon.
Nicky: Absolutely, alright, well thank you very much
Philippe: And yeah, speak soon
Philippe: Bye Bye then.Nicky's employer: Scott Davidson Chartered Surveyors
Links mentioned during the interview:
Philippe: Welcome to another edition of our podcast and today I’m really excited to have our champion user, Lee Kyson on the line from Kyson Building Consultancy. I said, champion user because you’ve got about a thousand new matters on Party Wall PRO, which is pretty exciting, but it’s not about you using our software anyway, it’s not about self-promotion, it’s more about you. Can you talk a bit about how you started, where you started, and how you got into surveying in general?
Lee: Well, basically I come from a trading background and I’ve spent all my life in construction. I’ve been used to having people working for me, building and renovating properties, much of my work was as a plastering contractor with mostly plasterers working for me. However, that was always on the physical side and as I’m not getting any younger, I decided I needed to try and make a change, but at the same time put the experience I’d gained to use. One day I was actually preparing a quote for a builder, to get some building work done on his house and while I was around there he was telling me he was having problems getting a party wall surveyor, and I was, vaguely familiar with the [Party Wall etc. 1996] Act, I just look into it and found out lot more information. I attended the course run by the faculty of party wall surveyors and started off working basically as a party wall surveyor, but just as a sideline and now it seems like it’s taking off and it is most of my work now. Philippe: So, you started your practice from scratch completely.
Philippe: So, you started your practice from scratch completely.
Philippe: That’s interesting because you are the first one. Normally people come from surveying practices, where they’ve done a little bit of party wall and then decided to set up their own practice or are still with bigger firms. That’s quite interesting: out of nothing, you started. So, how did you get to grow it, because obviously, that first client was one thing, but then how did you take off from there?
Lee: I think originally, I advertised heavily, wherever I could get some adverts in I would put them in and, I’ve probably spent an arm and a leg on advertising but it just brought… Let’s just say it wasn’t a very good return rate. It gradually got the foot in the door and gradually, I would get one customer then another and then it would gradually lead on to getting more and more customers. I say customers… but under the party wall act, they are not customers or clients but owners and for the sake of clarity we just refer to them as customers. But it just gradually advanced from there, an architect would bring me up and then I manage to maintain all future contacts with that architect and then gradually another architect came on board and I manage to keep in contact with them and managed a continual flow of [LOST CONNECTION].
Philippe: I think I’ve lost the connection there.
Philippe: Welcome back. You were explaining, how you got from your first customer, to building a bigger practice. You started advertising. Where did you start advertising?
Lee: I put an ad in Yell, because you can always do a freebie one in Yell. I also used another couple but I have to be careful what I say, because they weren’t very successful as I never actually had a single response from them. They were affiliated with local authorities for different areas. They weren’t successful. I think mainly it was Yell and I gradually managed to get a lot of responses from Google, and I did pay for some ads on Google, but then I gradually let my client base take over.
Philippe: Who did you target, on Google? Was it architects and project managers?
Lee: I think it was basically, “party walls surveyors”, but that was a paid for ad, [click to pay] and I think it cost a lot of money very quickly, so I knock that on the head which I knew it would do. I also think I wrote to a lot of architects and it’s just a question of sending it out, some information to other people. But because it was a sideline I wasn’t as reliant on it, as my main source of income. I was still doing building works, so it didn’t matter if I just got one party wall inquiry for that week and I carried that out. I wasn’t dependent upon it. So, it built slowly and it got to where it is now. It now keeps me going for most of my time. I do dispute resolution as well. I think between the two, I am very busy.
Philippe: That’s interesting. If you were to give some advice to someone who wanted to use advertising, the best thing would be to try and get directly in contact with architects.
Lee: I found that, although it’s difficult because everybody else has tried it before, so they’ve already got a base of party wall surveyors or they have a particular company that they work with. What I did was I experimented with targeting on Yell and I worked out what the best areas were. I actually paid for party wall surveyors in East London, in North London and the areas around, so that I had those areas and I was on the primary listings. It cost me quite a bit but it was a good return, for what I was paying out, because if someone searched “party wall surveyors East London”, my name would come up, if it wasn’t the top one it was within the top three. That worked quite well. The other one I think was Local Surveyors Direct, where you just pay for each lead, as they come up, but sometimes you are one of six or seven and you don’t stand a chance but, you’ll still be paying for that lead but that still had a good return. The other one, I get quite a few inquiries from RICS. I just became a chartered building consultancy recently, although I am a chartered member of the Chartered Institute of Building myself. I am now registered as a Chartered Building Consultancy within the CIOB. It’s possible that I might start getting inquiries from the CIOB. I do get inquiries through my membership with the faculty of party wall surveyors [FPWS] and occasionally from being a member of the Pyramus and Thisbe Club. There are areas where people can check your credentials. Where there are surveyors that have no credentials, no affiliations, but trall the planning portals and write to the adjoining owners. Which is one way of getting buyers, but I think a lot of the people I talk to, they tend to say we get the less we just bin them, because they take them a lot of time of what they have, because there are a lot of people who follow that route have left a bad reputation.
Philippe: How would you say your "acting for building owners and adjoining owners" ratio is? Is the majority of your work coming from building owners?
Lee: It used to be. Much of my work was originally working on behalf working on behalf or acting on behalf of the building owner and the adjoining owner would then appoint me as the agreed surveyor. I would say probably 80 percent of my work was as agreed surveyor. Probably about 20 percent was working in junction with another surveyor. In the last six months, we’ve had quite a lot of the inquiries whereby, I started taking on appointments for the adjoining owner, especially whereby the building owner carried out work, or they commenced work without serving notice. I’ve been acting on behalf of the adjoining owner, sent a letter to the building owner requesting that they appoint the surveyor within ten days or if they refuse that I would appoint one to act on their behalf which I have done on five or six occasions in the last few months. That seems to be a it of a trend. A lot of people won't take those on because they don’t believe the process can be started without a noticed being served. I think there’s another school of thought coming out on that.
Philippe: Coming back to your practice, now you run your party wall practice on a full-time basis?
Lee: Sometimes, it’s more on a full-time and sometimes you just get quiet times but as I also do dispute resolution as well, that can be quite time-consuming and at the moment I’m preparing a referral for a building contractor, for adjudication and I’m also studying for masters in construction law at the moment. I got my first year out of the way and I have my second year to go and that takes care of any spare time. My party wall workload tends to increase more and more. Sometimes I think, great I have a couple of days off next week I can get on with some studying but then someone will ring up and want something done. It’s always the last moment. Quite often they are people that come through architects that I know who they’ve told their client at the beginning they need to a party wall agreement in place. They don’t bother and leave it until the last minute, just as they are about to start and the adjoining owner says “what about a party wall award” and then they all stop, and they panic to get it all started.
Philippe: Typical. In terms of the workload, when did you get your first client? When was that?
Lee: Probably just over two years ago.
Philippe: Two years only? It’s snowballed pretty quickly. You’ve stopped marketing then? Because you get too many referrals now ?
Lee: I still get my Yell ads, because they pay for themselves.
Philippe: That’s nice.
Lee: I think that’s probably about it, I keep those ones going. Then I got my affiliations with the various organisations like I said I’ve managed to build my client base.
Philippe: That’s pretty handy. How did you keep on top of things?
Lee: With great difficulty. I got my partner, she is going to help me, she will keep on top of things hopefully, performing paperwork wise.
Philippe: How do you keep on top of things? That’s what a lot of busy party wall practitioners say, that, it’s actually difficult to keep on top of stuff.
Lee: I used to find it quite difficult. As you know, I am an great advocate of Party Wall PRO. That helps me to keep on top of everything because I can set my notices’ dates all automatically. I haven’t got to serve a notice and then make a note of it somewhere in the hope that I’ll remember, if haven’t had a response and in three weeks I’ll get a call from a rather irate building owner asking me what’s happened. I find that’s great!
Philippe: That’s good to hear and…
Lee: The other software I use is Word, Microsoft Word for generating letters but most of the work I do is with Party Wall PRO.
Philippe: How did you do it before? So you use spreadsheets?
Lee: I originally used spreadsheet, and I had one tab in a workbook for each particular notice and I had one page would be setup with all the details and once I put the building owner’s name in, that would then be carry through the particular point in each worksheets, you just to click on a particular worksheet and print it up and send it.
Philippe: Now okay.
Lee: It’s quite well, but wasn’t a very tidy way of proceeding with the work. I then did with Microsoft Word where I think I got a word document, which is about eighty pages long with all different aspects of the act within it. At the beginning I’d be putting all the details and then it changes it all through the document by way of using it as a bookmark and cross reference. Once I’d put it in bookmark it would changes the name each time and carried it through. It worked quite well, and you can do quite a nice and tidy document with it, but it still doesn’t keep control of the document. It’s my biggest problem because I’m not the tidiest of people. I tend to keep a lot of things in my head rather than writing down and make a list, like lot of sensible people do it. [Laughter]
Philippe: If you had to… because it is actually pretty amazing with that in two years you’ve built your practice from scratch and now you kind of are at the point where work comes easily and you can live from that. If you have to give advice to a young surveyor who has an interest in party wall matters, what would you recommend he or she starts with?
Lee: They need to start gradually and don’t expect everything to come to them. You’ve got to put yourself out and, not just make yourself known but also put yourself out for people. I accept that even if they call me, if you need anything even weekends. I just accept it and just get on with it because at the end of the day they’re my clients and put bread and butter on the table. There are days you can take off because you don’t get any work or the burden. You’ve got to put yourself out there, you’ve got to be honest with people, and you’ve got to give them a good service. If you can do that, and also even if you don’t know the answer to what they’re asking, don’t be afraid to ask advice somewhere else from someone more experienced and then you get back to them with the answer, because they’ll always appreciate that you’ve come back to them with an answer. Also, I find that with young surveyors, don’t always accepts what somebody else tells you. Use the advice and do your own research, form your own opinion of what you are answered to what a particular problem could be. Base your answer on that. So, make sure that you understand what you’re talking about rather than answer from the basis of what somebody has told you and make sure you understand what you’re asked.
Philippe: Where do you go if you need an answer?
Lee: I tend to ask various members of the faculty that are more experienced than me. There are plenty of people that are all helpful. There is the faculty of party wall surveyors, and party wall forums on LinkedIn. People often put questions out there that they are not sure of, and the questions aren’t always from, people who don’t really know anything. Lot of questions are from experienced surveyors, because a lot of these issues do have two sides to them. YOu might have 50% of the people who have got one idea and 50% got something different. Somebody will put up a question and you’ll think well, that guy is been doing that, twenty-thirty years, but they’re not afraid to put a question to the floor on the forum and get other people’s opinions.
Philippe: Now, that’s a good place to start.
Lee: Also to read the Party Wall etc. 1996 Act, if you read the Party Wall etc. 1996 Act and read it properly, don’t put words into it, because sometimes people will tell you something and you might find that they are putting a particular word in. It could be that they may say “may” instead of “shall”. There is a big difference in the meaning. You have to read it very carefully but form your own opinion.
Philippe: Education wise you said that you took the faculty’s course. Is it two three day course isn’t it?
Lee: It’s a two day course but I think there is some a new course that is a level three course, I can’t think which one there is now, but the faculty got details of it. You can actually get qualification now, for party wall surveying. A lot in my qualification, has come from years of pulling apart and rebuilding what most party wall surveyors looked at. I have had vast amount of experience from that point of view, but I think for someone starting from scratch you just have to be you. Take it slowly, and don’t be afraid to seek advice.
Philippe: Okay. So educations read the Party Wall etc. 1996 Act, start slowly, and if you want to market try Yell, it seems to be working best, and take it slowly and try to learn from many experienced. Reach out to the community. I think it’s true, it looks like it’s a very tightly knit community, the party wall community.
Lee: They are. Most of the surveyors I know, they’re all helpful, if you have a querry, they’ll do their best to give you an answer. If they don’t know, and they quite often like it, if you have a question they’re not sure of, because they go seek advice. It can be an ongoing thing. There are things where I’ve asked for advice. Someone has come back to me and told me I’m completely wrong, but I relooked at what I was doing and decided that I was on the right track and carried on, with my point of view. You just need to have faith in what you’re doing.
Philippe: Perfect. One last question who should I interview next, any names on top of your head?
Lee: Try Ken Power. We’ve done a few party walls together, because we both have similar views on 10(4) appointments
Philippe: I’ll reach out then.
Lee: He’s a very knowledgeable guy as well, he teaches on the Faculty course aswell. He helps run all the Faculty forums.
Philippe: Good person to know.
Philippe: Perfect. Lee, thank you so much for your time.
Lee: You’re Welcome.
Philippe: Nice talking to you and definitely stay in touch.
Lee: Yes.Lee's company: Kyson Building Consultancy
Links mentioned during the interview:
Philippe: Hello everyone! Today we've got Alistair Redler with us from Delva Patman, Redler who is the man when it comes to party wall surveying and he has been in the business for how long now, Alistair?
Alistair: Well this from 23 years, since starting work probably about 28.
Philippe: 28? How did you?-- so tell me-- from the start how did you get into surveying.
Alistair: By accident, almost! I left school with lousy A levels, did 3 years doing manual labor work and a cousin of mine who's a structural engineer and now senior partner of a large firm in the South recommended that I spend some time with him seeing what engineers did. And having decided that surveying looked more interesting than engineering, I went into it. I decided that was a good call--it was all I could do. So basically, just, it was a good lifestyle rather than a choice.
Philippe: Right, so how did you, from there, go into party wall matters? Did you start straight away with just focusing on party walls or was it just general surveying and then?
Alistair: No, ah, sort of. A colleague; and there was a couple lectures on party walls that I thought were interesting. It was interesting that there was a specialization that was relatively straightforward and at that time, very boutique applying to only in London. And I quite liked the idea of it. As I got into surveying and working, I found I liked the professional end of surveying better than construction and design. So I got into dilapidation surveys, and party walls and to a certain extent repair works rather than design works; very much my field, I am not a designer at all. So, the party wall work, and I used to get as I could from the firm I was working in. And eventually, in '92, I thought I'd apply to a firm that was more specialist and applied to a few firms including Delva Patman and got the job. So, I wanted to be more specialist and do rights of light as well so it was a deliberate attempt to get into this field.
Alistair: Delva being extremely experienced and very very capable.
Philippe: And then, and then, from there on, how do you-- how do you actually start building your own practice? Because it's --, it's like, with my background as a lawyer you work in a law firm with a partner that hands you the work, and without questioning it. But you don't really have time to go in and seek your own instructions, your own clients. So how did you go from, from working for Delva into slowly getting your own client base?
Alistair: I think you do it just by working, actually. I think it's about personality, but I think it's about working. I have -we, we, as a practice do almost no marketing. No active marketing, no classic marketing. No cold calls, no taking people to lunch twice a week, no -you know--, no marketing budget effectively. We manage to do the job, when we do the job, we think very well; we do it our way. We do it very well. That, backed up with doing lectures and articles, and just helping people out. It's amazing, that one of the best ways of getting a name around is for your rivals to speak well of you; in party wall world particularly. And other negotiating fields like dilapidation and so on, because if your rivals speak well of you, not only do they want to negotiate with you, because well it may not be the easiest ride, it will be a fair and honest one. But, the clients can't also go to the same people, there's a conflict, so you get the contacts that way as well. So basically you're doing the job best you can.
Philippe: So that "best you can", is that just going above and beyond what normal people would deliver and bill for?
Alistair: It's difficult, you just got to know what you're doing. And you've got to be right in knowing what you're doing. There's plenty of people out there, who think they know what they are doing; who are very high-opinion of themselves, and it's not shared by their compatriots in the way that they think it should be because they are not as good as they think they are. It's difficult to call that one, I think, actually, an honest and open approach to yourself, and dealing with colleagues well; whether they’re in your firm or outside your firm, because in party wall world people in other firms are colleagues too, and or should be treated as such. You actually learn from them, feed off them, and you learn together. An example in party walls is the amount of case law recently that clarified matters; there was a bitter dispute between party wall surveyors like right to access under Section 1, like foundation details. There were surveyors that I highly respect that were completely wrong on those points by the way the courts turned out. However, I could have been completely wrong, too, if a different judge had been hearing the case. I think that the fact that the case comes in people understand the facts in such detail, they accept judgement because they understand where it is coming from. And between us, we work together. And to say, there is very little quarreling about it either, you get on with the job. So in other words, you build your knowledge, your reputation off other people as well as doing it yourself. You have to read the books, you have to pay attention, but certainly having an opened mind is critically important. I think, especially as a younger surveyor, you need to work very well with the people around you.
Philippe: So do you remember your first client? The first person that came to you?
Alistair: Yes, in fact I did my year out, my summer year, at the Property Services Agency. It was the government property department so I didn't have a client there, really, we had a few people we worked for. But when I graduated, my very first job was Barclays’ Bank on the highway in East London. I was sent out on my own to prepare a full specs on decoration and repair, which I would never do for a very young graduate now. So that was my first one. It kind of went alright. I still don't know whether we needed to replace all the loose lights but it got down anyways. It looked good!
Philippe: How did you get it? Was it through the person you were working for at the time?
Alistair: I worked for a firm based in Crystal Palace, really nice firm. It suffered badly in the recession that followed. And my team leader, basically, put the associate in charge and said 'right, here's one for you, go and do it.' So that was it. And he had back-up, of course, someone who read the specifications and looked at photographs so you had the back-up when you got back.
Philippe: That's always helpful.
Alistair: Oh yeah, absolutely!
Philippe: And, so if you had to give some advice to someone who wants to get into the party wall business and such, how do you start a practice from scratch? Or how do you, for people who act mainly for adjoining owners, people who scrape the land registry portal-- how do you get them to get on the other side and start acting for more building owners?
Alistair: Well the first thing I think is critical is the party wall surveyor should not be an instant specialty. It really isn't. I think you're a surveyor first and then a party wall surveyor second. I talk about my first one being an external repair of a building, a large commercial building. I did a few years of a lot of construction work. Not necessarily the stuff we do with party walls now; I didn't do any household work or basement work, for example, but I did construction work, and we have a policy here where we prefer our surveyors --it doesn't allows happen-- but we prefer our young surveyors to come from a firm with a good surveying background. We find they make the best party wall surveyors because they know what they are talking about and they know the profession at a wider level. For example, they understand the client's requirements better, they understand costs better, they've applied law on a wider scale than just party walls law. So the answer for people who are the ambulance chasers is there are too many out there now, who go straight into party walls thinking 'there's a nice easy number to do,' as I indeed, thought when I was at college. But I think you just get the practice first. To be a good building owner surveyor, you have to know what you are doing. You're acting for developers; you're acting for big developers. You're not just talking about a household building owner. You're talking about a project team that could be 20 to 30 people around the table. You need to understand what the team wants from you. And I think the party walls surveyor's role is to get off the critical path as fast as possible. You are not the most important person in the room; in fact, you are one of the least important people in the room. Or at least you should be one of the least important people in the room. You've got structural engineers who design massive structures. You need to just tell them what you need for the party wall bit of their work and get it and use it so you can move on with your party wall process. You need to understand the client's requirements. I'll give you an example, a surveyor could spend ages arguing over a finite bit of detail on basement or over the adjoining owner's staircase but I've got a job in the West End at the moment, that while it was in the demolition phase delays were going to cost £10 million a month. You don't want to be holding up that job because you think the other surveyor is charging an extra £1000 too much. So it's understanding the concept of that that makes you a good building owner surveyor and the best building owner surveyors are the ones who the clients can rely upon to know what they need from them. That's the difference. To be a know-all party wall surveyor is fine when you are actively joining owners and pleasing them; it isn't the job when you are acting for a development where you are just one cog that has to make the development work. And I think that's a big difference -- and that's -- people who are dismissive of the specialist firms and wonder how certain names out there get those names don't really realize how well those people --and I'm talking about main rivals of mine-- how good they are at doing just that job. And how good they are at delivering and organizing and, indeed, persuading other surveyors and being reassuring to adjoining owners at the same time; it's quite a big role. It's an important role to build, and that's how you build a practice. That's why people come back to you without you marketing. And that's how you find people who phone you up and say 'I spoke to my lawyer and he said that I should phone you,' which, again, is what the top firms get-- a number of firms get-- it is the way in which you do that. So the answer is to be --it's not to know everything about the party wall act or to be the surveyor who finds the problem. It's being the one who can get the answers and make it work.
Philippe: There is quite a wide skill-set, you've got to be able to do project management, you got to be able to make yourself small when you need to be, and dig yourself up in other circumstances. So what are the other kinds of skills that someone should develop or work on if they wanted to get their foot in the door?
Alistair: Yeah, on the technical side, there's personality and style and there's technical. Personality, one of the things that I would say to all those surveyors is to be relentlessly nice to everybody, literally. There's no reason to be unpleasant to anybody. If they send you some stupid comment, reply nicely explaining why they are wrong. If you're right, they'll concede very quickly, for example. But to get there, in the first place, you have to be right. You have to know what you are talking about. You need to read, you need to know the books, you need to know some of the case law. But I wouldn't get hung up on it. I think quoting case law in normal correspondence is a sign of weakness, personally. You should be able to explain why something is without 'it's because of "x" case', unless you need to. Unless you're pinning down or steering somebody towards a principle that is in one case rather than another. I think you need to know your construction. You need to look at the drawings. An example, for a building owner surveyor, is there is a big tendency to --especially those on fixed fees-- to push a bundle of documents across to an adjoining owner’s surveyor and let them sort out what they want out of that bundle. That is not acceptable. A building owner’s surveyor has to know what they are seeing; they need to understand what they are seeing and they need to approve it themselves before they pass it along. And the reason they need to do that partly, is so they understand the project they are on, but they learn. They go back to the team and say 'what is this detail', 'why have you done this?' 'is the foundation a bit slender?' And they'll explain why it isn't and why they've designed it that way. You learn on the job doing that. Interestingly, one of the best meetings on site I ever had was on a job in Kensington where we were acting for a very large and very very expensive house with overseas wealthy clients on my side. And we were concerned about movement; there was a big basement being dug. And a young engineer, young structural engineer gave the party wall surveyors a 20 minute masterclass in geo-technical movement in the site hub. It was brilliant! It was aimed at surveyors so it had no maths in it. It was all about pictures and impact; how it works. And it was very effective. Ever since then I can talk more intelligently about basement geo-technical movements. It's amazing! And I was pretty experienced then when I had that and it was still valuable to me. So you don't know it all. For a young surveyor, it's listening to other people and work. And I think the other thing is don't rush into setting something up too quickly. You can set up a business at 25 and do quite well out of it actually. There's a big value in working with other people for some time, and getting the experience of your colleagues, and how they work, and what they know. And when you set up a firm, or when you go into a specialization, or you go into a big firm to set up your own specialization team up-- which is what some people do-- you can do it well because you know what you are talking about. It goes back to the basics, you need to be a good surveyor first.
Philippe: So there's no way around 'work your way through it' basically?
Alistair: I think the other thing is there are jobs in the property industry, in surveying; there are two types of building surveying actually, there are two extremes in building surveying: there are people who do one job at a time in very great depth and they are, for example, the project managers on the very complex projects and then you get the other extreme where people handle 100 to 150 projects at a time in a lot of small bits; and that is the busy party wall surveyor. So you need to be able to handle that, you need to have the mindset that holds a lot of information very quickly. I'll give you an example, sometimes as a third surveyor sometimes I have to vet adjoining surveyor fees when it comes as a third surveyor referral. And I look at it and every couple of weeks there's half an hour down for reviewing the file and catching up with something. Well, it's not really very acceptable. You haven't got a brain that can hold that information even if you've done a hundred things since. Hold most of the information so you know what you're looking at when it arrives. You shouldn't be charging, for example, the fees that some people are charging for doing that. If you charge a high fee, you should be able to do that very quickly.
Philippe: So that actually brings us nicely into what kinds of tools do you use to make your life easier and to try to empty that brain?
Alistair: Yeah, not enough probably. I think being on top of the work-load is the obvious one. That's where the mobile devices now make such a big difference. The use of iPads and smartphones and so on is useful. We do trackers for party wall work, a simple spreadsheet that has the details on it of who everybody is, who the surveyors are, and comments. We use different details for different projects. Some projects we need to send the clients a spreadsheet every couple of weeks; it has to have something new on it. Other times, it’s used for just an aide memoir of "who's who." But we largely rely on the surveyors doing it for themselves and work the way they do best within the framework of the systems we have in the office.
Philippe: And any tools you wish you had?
Alistair: Well the biggest problem with-- it's very easy in party wall surveying to be reactive-- so you always wait for someone else to respond. I think the tools that are always useful, is to know when you should be chasing things, and not just relying on other people doing it or telling you. You should be chasing or responding to it so they don't actually have to be chasing you. I think that is one of the main ones. As we go through very busy cycles, people will tend to deal with what is forced on top of their list; and you need to be on top of the list. So I think it's reminders-- some people are better at it than others; they just do it their own way.
Philippe: So I guess in party wall jobs “no news is bad news”. It means that you need to do something about it?
Alistair: It is, it is. And of course it's how you do it as well. You have to be careful about over automating things. For example, the use of the 10 day notice, in my experience, we hardly ever use it here, hardly ever even jokingly use it because people do tend to take offense. You can write to somebody and try and get a quicker response off of them by sort of a polite request. But most of the time, --if no news-- if you've forgotten to chase someone and it's become critical on the project then you've got problems on your hands. That's when you rely on your personality. I've got one of my colleagues, who have just been on holiday, and did what I always had to rely upon which is call in favours in the last 10 days before you go away and we had awards going out, several awards going out every day for the last four days before she went off and completely cleared the workload because she is highly regarded and people will always help her out. So that actually, is one of the advantages of doing this -- you can get things done quite effectively. But it also just showed that everything was on top and capable of being completed too.
Philippe: And so, to kind of conclude -- so I'm a surveyor, I've done it for 5 or 6 years, I've got an interest in party wall matters, where do I go to try to get more involved in it? Should I join the P&T club?
Alistair: Yeah. I'd definitely join the P&T club. There's no barrier to entry. Apart from being a professional in the construction. I would do talks. The P&T club does the Theodore Bullfrog talks which are the junior-based ones. They are not normally full, they are very cheap; only about £12 for a decent talk, free food and drink, and it's a good way to network young surveyors of similar experience and more experience, which is particularly useful. You can't under-emphasize the importance of talking about these things with your peers, not just your superiors. I think that is critically important. I think someone here can speak to me and get an answer but if they speak to one of their colleagues at their same level, they'll end up with more of a debate and discussion and then someone will get the book out and have a look. You can get a lot of depth. It can be as useful. So I think they should do that, I think they should decide where they are working or what they are doing. I mean I got a lot of my good experience working in a general building surveying firm and then in a multi-discipline surveying firm getting quite a lot of the party wall work but with good clients and that got me the experience without having to do full-on party walls and nothing else. That lead me into what I'm doing. I don't think someone should necessarily think you have to go and work for a firm like ours straight away to get all that experience. I think you can get it with a wider range and then build that specialty as you know you want to do it. But by all means if someone has a year or two of experience and wants to for a specialist firm and they know they want to, then that's absolutely fine. The other thing to watch out for, of course, is if you come to a firm like ours, or some of our rival's, without special construction experience getting charted is very difficult. We have great clients, really good work, really good experience with very good teams, best architects, best engineers, but that's not the same as doing it yourself and going through an APC. So, and I would say to anybody, no matter how tempting party wall surveying is and how lucrative it may appear, if you're going to get a good, well-paid job, you've got to think about whether you'd want to go through your career not having got charted or having to go back and do it; and I think it's worth having it. And also, by getting charted, you have done what a firm like ours needs to know that you're going to be a competent surveyor doing the job. So, well we have surveyors who aren't charted and they do a perfectly sound job; I think people should aim get charted first, and then target firms like ours for where they come to after that.
Philippe: How easy is it for you guys to find the right people?
Alistair: Not always that easy, funnily enough. If people really want to come to our field there's --we're competing with the other firms, when they're looking-- there are people who are worried about being a specialist, even if they're good at it. And it's getting the right people; there are plenty of people who think this is what they want to do, or they're the perfect person, but their CV isn't good enough; it just isn't right. If you got too much of the wrong-side experience-- you know, I happen to think having consultant experience is more important than client side for our particular way we work with our clients. So you have to find that as well, but that's just us. So we sometimes have difficulty. The hardest thing is getting the young, well-experienced surveyors because they're gold dust. Someone just charted with a good range of experience is always going to be in demand because of what they can bring. That said, we have a full team at the moment; we've recently just taken someone else on. So it's going quite well.
Philippe: That's good! Great, well thank you Alistair so much for your time. And I'm sure I'll see you around.
Alistair: Brilliant! I look forward to seeing you.
Philippe: Well, bye then!
Alistair: Take care now!Alistair's firm: Delva Patman Redler
Links mentioned during the interview: Pyramus & Thisbe Club